1_14 Kowsheek Mahmood: Balancing Presence with Ambition, Finding Belonging, and Technology as Enabler of Human Flourishing

[00:00:42] Raad: Kowsheek, a pleasure to have you. Thanks so much for joining.

[00:00:45] Kowsheek: Thanks, man. I wanna start off by saying the amazing work you're doing and how inspiring it's been for me as a Bengali, as a technologists, as a maker, I think it's incredible the way you're able to articulate what we are up to as a people, Bengali people, but as also, minorities and so yeah, we can get into it, but like I, the amount of experiences I've unraveled just by hanging out with you in the short amount of time that we've met has been very profound for me. So I'm super amped to do this with you right now.

[00:01:16] Raad: I really appreciate that man. That means a lot to me. We're gonna talk a lot about technology, but you and I connected on Twitter and this is one of the beautiful things about technology and it's positive impacts on the world. Of course there's lots things that is questionable and is still unraveling, but I think.

[00:01:32] the thing that it was, made for, to connect people like minds who've never met. And all of a sudden, a spontaneous moment brings them together. And look where we are now. We're good friends, building things together. And now you're on my podcast.

[00:01:44] Kowsheek: I totally agree with you on that, but I would say even with that, it's only the human kind of initiative that makes that happen. Because you and I both follow thousands of people. I've never messaged a Bengali person, I've never connected with them. I've never, I don't think I've ever even connected with a random person like that.

[00:02:04] I didn't already know from, as they call it, IRL . So I think it more speaks to about the initiative that you took than platform provides. Cuz I feel like if we were elsewhere, we would still connect in some way. And that's from the initiative humans bring to the table. So anyway that's why,

[00:02:23] Raad: no, I I definitely believe in the hippie ethos that if it's meant to be, it'll happen. the universe as hokey as it sounds, does find a way to conspire like-minded people together. 

[00:02:33] I wanna start in the very beginning. Often sort of bring on guests and we talk about really how did they grow up. My belief is that, I don't believe in fate per se, but I do believe that if you explore enough dimensions, you eventually come to the thing you're supposed and I think upbringing has a lot to do with that. I think you've grown up in so many different places. just the other day. I found that you went to the oldest market in the world in Damascus dad was diplomat posted in Syria back when Syria was not a conflict-ridden zone.

[00:03:01] It was still, it's such a sad thing that one of the oldest civilizations in human history has come to this. But let's start, how you grew up. What was the circumstances? Your father was a diplomat, meant that you traveled and moved quite a. How did that sort of shape you?

[00:03:16] Kowsheek: I think like most of us, I think childhood is very defining right? And it's defined both the good things and the bad things in my life in terms of how I deal with stress, trauma all of those things. But also the hunger for learning and exploring and curiosity and the need for diversity in my life.

[00:03:34] I think both of these, those things come from my upbringing. As you mentioned, I moved around a lot. So that obviously puts a strain on a child, on not having friendships, not having long lasting relationships having parents and has most immigrant people know, having parents who have really high expectations of you despite the upheavals of traveling and moving around.

[00:03:55] So I think that was very defining for me. Yeah, we moved even though I was born in Malish, I moved to Jordan, like really early on. That's where my first memories are. I have some memories of Bangladesh and Sylhet. That's where my dad used to work. I have some memories of Bondish, but most of my memories are from the Middle East.

[00:04:12] And like you said, I had the privilege of visiting many of the ancient parts of world civilization, not just ours. I had, we went and visited Babylon, we went and visited Damascus. That's actually why I think I have that pull towards ancient knowledge.

[00:04:29] Because you see the archeology the history that defines all of us because the history of Babylon is not just the history of Persian people or Iranian people or Iraqi people. It's the history of Alexander is the history of Greece and all of civilization. So there's something recent actually I've come to that you.

[00:04:52] Our history's all intertwined. But anyway going back to the topic of upbringing. Yeah. So I grew up in the Middle East a lot with going to international schools, learning different languages. As always, like I, I don't know what it is, actually, immigrant people when we go to the Middle East or other countries, like education's much easier for us.

[00:05:10] I don't know what it is. It's like high expectations from your family or whatever it is. So I excelled in my my studies, but I think it was never good enough. So I was always a bookworm. I was reading a lot of things. I was always inquisitive about knowledge. And my dad, he's very cultured. He's got, as most of our parents from Bangladesh, hundreds of poems memorized and we would always listen to them.

[00:05:34] He'd recite them to us. Our upbringing was very at least mine was very connected to culture, arts, learning. But once again, the flip side of that is expectation and, the need to be more and need to grow. Yeah, I most of my childhood was in the Middle East, in, in Bangladesh.

[00:05:51] That's where we mostly moved around. Lots of countries I've got to visit. 

[00:05:54] Raad: Tell me a little bit about how your father became a diplomat, because Bangladesh itself is a very young country so for for him to become a diplomat and represent Bangladesh, I imagine at that time, probably in countries where there was no diplomatic relations or a brand new relationship established, and so he might be the only in that country.

[00:06:13] Kowsheek: yeah. Totally.

[00:06:14] Raad: was

[00:06:14] working with people who didn't have any other way to get passports and stuff, 

[00:06:16] Kowsheek: oh, totally. If I, if my memory served me correctly. So my dad and the whole mission that he was partaking in was the first mission to Jordan. So to establish an embassy there. And it, it's like if you imagine like back in this is I would want to say in 1994 or 1993, something like that.

[00:06:36] So quite a while ago, but once again, my memory may be fuzzier on those numbers. But yeah, he was one of the he was he was what's called first secretary. And basically he worked for the government all his life in Bangladesh. And as we were trying to build relationships with the Middle East, because as there are a lot of foreign workers.

[00:06:53] And Jordan is a beacon of, democracy and, stability in the Middle East. And having an embassy there, I think strategically made sense, made a lot of sense for Bangladesh actually. And that's what he did. And from the base in Jordan, we would visit places like Iraq, places like Iran to support people who are working there or, renew their passports, help them with their immigration issues or, human rights issues.

[00:07:16] My dad, he's been very professional throughout his life and he's been an excelling in his life through that professional career as an administrator for the government. Yeah, I think it's a it's amazing to see how our country slowly evolves through a personal story of my dad and mine.

[00:07:34] Yeah it's a, and like in those countries there is a lot of respect for, people who come from our background, even though you hear on media, a lot of other stories, but people see the hard work and how we are helping them build those countries. But obviously there's a flip side to that too.

[00:07:50] There's a lot of human rights issues. Yeah. I think those things really defined my upbringing. Like I always endeavor to diplomatic with people. Even though I can be , not so much as well

[00:08:03] Raad: I've never be diplomatic. diplomatic 

[00:08:04] Kowsheek: sometimes 

[00:08:05] I think that's part of the story as well.

[00:08:07] I think that's one thing I've noticed my dad as well to do is speak his mind and be very truthful to how. What he believes in and the culture that he represents. It's you're, you are always defined by your parents, whether we like it or not. Yeah. And I think it's a, these are good values that I carry forward and try to nurture for sure.

[00:08:27] Yeah.

[00:08:27] Raad: It's funny because I believe that you were probably, your dad probably was posted in Saudi Arabia at the same time that I was growing up there and there, maybe mid nineties, which might even be that I was in your house, and

[00:08:40] then 

[00:08:41] Kowsheek: maybe should I do try to keep my professional life separate from my personal life, but, we need to go chat with my dad about, where your dad was and where your family was at the time, because in 1998 we moved full-time, or 1999, moved full-time to the Middle East, like I remember to Saudi Arabia.

[00:08:57] Sorry. And I remember in 2001 being in our living room on 9/11 in Saudi Arabia. And I think I was alone watching that news. And then I called my dad like, check out what's happening. And it was like late night too. I remember that very vividly. So if you were there at the time, I'm sure if you interfaced with the embassy, my dad was, stationed there.

[00:09:17] So yeah. It's funny how the world works like

[00:09:20] Raad: it, it is funny nobody ever forgets where they were when 9/11 happened. It's such

[00:09:26] Kowsheek: I know. It's such a defining moment in culture and history. I was actually thinking about this, like what is another moment in history that our generation remembers and I think it would be Covid That would be the next thing that we remember.

[00:09:39] Raad: COVID was the equal great equalizer in the sense that I think across generations this has become, three years that we all share maybe different perspective on it depends on where you live and even if you're downtown or out on the outskirts of the city. Different experience.

[00:09:51] But we're was getting with that is, I think easy to glamorize a life of a diplomat because you get to travel a lot. You are at these wanky parties and you are like helping people are doing this. What, feels on the surface, like a very glamorous life. But I can imagine being children of diplomats is very hard cuz you were alluding to this a little bit, which is you move around a lot, you don't have time to build deep relationships and have embedded relationships anywhere you. Tell us a little bit about what that was like. You were really into reading books and culture and really about acquiring knowledge, but where did that motivation come from and how much was that related to having to move around a lot?

[00:10:28] Kowsheek: Yeah, that's a good question. I'm not sure if I can connect all those dots, but I think I, I maybe just intrinsically was always drawn to words and text. I think that's always something I've noticed. I have an affinity for , just words and letters and so I was really into books, so I'm not sure what it is, and that's why I'm also a great programmer I think and it just those things just work for my brain. But when it comes to moving, this is the same for athletes. Athletes, I know their lives are glamorized and they're all this, there's all this money about their lives. But really, if you think about it, like every week they're in a new city.

[00:11:00] They're having to maintain their schedule. So it's very, from the outside, what may look glamorous. It's very different for the when you're in the family. It's the same for the military. Actually. The military may look glamorous slash. Very like insular. But the thing is, there's a reason for that cuz everyone is like Mo Mobile, they're moving around.

[00:11:19] Their unit is very small. And I think that's what happened to me as a kid is that my unit became very small, which I was just myself, right? So I like to be very individual and maybe fiercely which served me well at some point since others not so much. So yeah, I think to your point, it's just not always the case that it's glamorous.

[00:11:39] Cuz I, I know my mom used to say by the time I was 20, we have moved around 21 times. So on average, , I lived in a house one year. And Toronto is where I moved eventually, and that's the longest I've been in one city forever. , like in 30 plus years that I've been alive. Yeah. So you don't really, if you ask me where's your childhood home, I wouldn't be able to tell you.

[00:12:01] I'd be like, I don't know. I had so many of them that I have fragmentations of memory. There's, you know how people say I'm gonna go back to my childhood X like place. I'll be able to tell you what that is. And before, actually I used to feel sad about that. I was like, oh man, I don't have a thing like that.

[00:12:16] But more recently I've come to terms with that and actually embraced that. My home is everywhere. Like I go, right? I have places in Jordan I can go to in Saudi Arabia and Deran it's pretty awesome. Coming to terms with that as a kid is impossible. . You just like close in, you do your thing.

[00:12:30] As an individual, is the story of most people who go through that kind of experience. yeah.

[00:12:36] Raad: Third culture kids are a special breed think home is always an elusive idea, but I think similar to you, I've also found peace in it and actually strengthened it now, but there's a lot of personal anguish, knowing

[00:12:50] what.

[00:12:50] Kowsheek: Yeah.

[00:12:52] Raad: culture what in group to be a part of, whether I was part constantly doubting if I was ever gonna be part of any in group.

[00:12:59] But I think, to your point, when you make peace with that, you could actually home is really, that's cheesy as it sounds, wherever you want it to be, 

[00:13:06] Kowsheek: it's everywhere. This is, the whole planet is your home. And any culture can be your home. And that's what I've also experienced and the Arab people and the Middle Eastern people, they, I think because of, their beduin culture and all that, they kind of embrace that, that you are always welcome to their tribe.

[00:13:22] And I think that's a very informed slash wise approach cuz you know, you have to move cities as a beduin when you had to. Not so much anymore, like there's no inkling of Bedwin culture in Dubai or these places anymore. But it's it's definitely ingrained in even eastern culture. Our culture is that, you're always welcome as a family to someone else's family.

[00:13:44] Kids live multi-generationally and all things. Those are things I think we've lost a little bit. But yeah, the world can be your home wherever you want it to be. And it's really about the mindset of, Hey, I'm gonna make a home here. These are the people I'll be with this. To your point, like I about the in group, like I said, I know I've been very individualistic. If you think about, oh, I gotta go hang out with my childhood friends, I don't know what that means, , like, where are they? I have no idea where most of my friends are. And funny Thinging how life works is two of my best friends from both Jordan and Saudi Arabia live in Toronto.

[00:14:16] And I've had, been able to be in touch with them, but obviously, like we're not best friends anymore, but it's and those, that's when I was in like, I don't know, grade four and like grade seven or eight, something like that. It's like I was really young. To have those best friends and see their lives evolve now it's pretty cool.

[00:14:32] Raad: Yeah, it reminds me of a story like last year or so, I was in Paris with two of my best friends from here that I met. They're both Bangladeshi and we met in university and we did our first trip abroad together. So we went to Paris and then Amsterdam and in Paris. enough, I had, it wasn't planned.

[00:14:50] It just happened in such a way that had this one dinner where my friends from like growing up in Saudi, they came from the UK and other part of France to meet us there. And so it happened that my friends from 30 years ago were with my friends from 20 years ago, joining friends from 10 years ago, and then friends that I met five years ago.

[00:15:11] And I was just thinking that every one of those groups had different fragments of myself and it was just hilarious to see them all together. And they all got along and they're, and I'm like, oh, maybe there has been a common thread. No matter where in the world I went, I hung out with the same kind of people. 

[00:15:26] Let's switch gears. I want to talk about your knack for technology. So in this sort of, a phase of your life where you are learning, and this constant hunger for learning. Where did the technology come in? Where did the role of, let's say computers and software, where did that, where did that start? How did that start?

[00:15:44] Kowsheek: I don't think I've been away from computers for a very long time, so it's gonna take me a while to describe all of that. But I think it started with video games. Like I was always playing video your game since I remember maybe I think the first time I had a computer was like 1998 or something like that when, no, nine, maybe 1996.

[00:16:05] When my dad bought us a Pentium two, I remember that. Windows 98 getting into the games, but what you may think, I was just playing games, but not really. I was actually looking at how the games folders were and like what files were in those folders, looking at like different textures and just examining like TIF files and these text files for configuration.

[00:16:24] Just cuz I was like intrigued how these games are being made and what's behind them, and how you could delete one file, it just doesn't work anymore. , it's, it was just cool. I think it was just experimentation. I didn't really get into programming till I was like, I think 14 or 15 when I came across the Sun Microsystems website where they're, they had three lessons on how to learn Java and to what I said before about text, it was just describing text and like how you could use text to.

[00:16:52] make computers do things. And I was just very fascinated about that, and like I said, there was no like logical thinking about, Hey, I'm gonna get into this, I'm a good career or whatever. But it was just something that I came across on the internet and was drawn to. And I did those lessons, the Java lessons.

[00:17:10] It was cool. And I think that started me in the journey of learning programming. And then I met some random friend and he I couldn't tell you which friend it was cuz I don't remember who it was. But we were Chatting and we just happened to build some software for key logging, which was like, can you type keys?

[00:17:28] And it actually logs what you're typing. Not very secure not something I would build anymore, but . And we built it and then we showed it around to our friends and someone was like, Hey, I showed it to the cafe next door, like the internet cafe, and the guy wants to buy it from you.

[00:17:41] So I think around 16, I made my first money selling software. Even though it's not software I'm very proud of, but it's still, I think it started me it was an intentional, you could call it a hustle, but it was, it's just, I guess just the world pushing in the right direction or in direction that you should go in, yeah, that's how I sold my first software. That's where I wrote my first software. That was something people used and I think. Then I just, I just love that craft of writing software and, learning these things and other books I started to read around like clean code and elegance in programming.

[00:18:14] I think that's another concept that really pulled me was like, how do you have elegance in writing code? I know it's a very foreign concept for a lot of people, but there are such things as elegant programming and elegant code and and you can write it and you can create it. And when you do it, it looks like a masterpiece.

[00:18:31] And it feels like a masterpiece. There's the reverse of it. Spaghetti code, , like that. A lot of people write too, but I think that endeavor is what drives me still, like just building greater products creating better code, better architecture. It's how I compare it is like chiseling away at a stone to make something.

[00:18:50] Beautiful. But what that does is not physical. It's a mental pleasure of refining something. I think I find really attractive and that's what drives me a lot. Yeah, like I'll spend hours

[00:19:03] just

[00:19:03] yeah.

[00:19:04] Raad: skill turns to art basically. 

[00:19:06] Kowsheek: Yeah. It's craftsmanship. I think that's what I really love about what I do. It's the craftsmanship of learning something new and getting deeper into it and refining what you're building not just yourself. And before I was very individualistic about it, but, with a team, how do you help your team refine software with you so that they have the same level of, either expectation.

[00:19:29] Or standards the same way I do and maybe even more. So sometimes, you can feed off of their standards too. Of course. And how do you learn that and, build that? So it's building mastery over, over work and code. And that can be as simple as writing one line of code, right at it can be as complex as writing a full system.

[00:19:49] So I think all of that just is very, I think, attunes to, I think a common thread that everyone has, which is to find mastery in something. So artists have the same feeling. Musicians have the same feeling. So I think softer artists, if you wanna call us that have the same draw as well.

[00:20:09] But it's, it takes a journey to find that, it takes a journey to realize that's something you can do. Yeah.

[00:20:15] Raad: I think you're touching on a very philosophical aspect of technology here. I think, there's a lot of hyper on technology nowadays and has been for the last however many years, and partly because SaaS and software as a service and These multi-billion dollar companies, they're not that old.

[00:20:31] It's a maybe 10 to 15 year old movement in a way. So I think the point the reason I say that is there is a lot of hype and there's an entire segment of the ecosystem that is just pushing hype. And the result of that is that people have a completely wrong understanding what technology actually fundamentally or philosophically is.

[00:20:51] So let me step back. Let us step back a little bit and define what technology means to you and be as abstract and philosoph as you want. Let's step back and move away from software and hardware per se, and talk about what it does and what it is.

[00:21:07] Kowsheek: And this is another part of I guess why I love technology. It's about, I think I'll be I think how I can answer this question is actually by referencing someone who inspires me to build technology and not because of the technology for its sake. So it's Dave my current boss, and I've also been working with him at Brio for a long time.

[00:21:25] From his perspective, he's a creator by trade. He's one of the world's. Modelers and 3D modelers and artists and just to see him work and think about how he uses technology to solve a problem is something, to something that always I do not find I'm never bored of seeing that process that he goes through to create something with a technology solution.

[00:21:46] To me it's about not just using technology for technology's sake, even though I did say that you could, I could write code that I just love for writing code. It's like creating a painting for the sake of creating painting that you never sell. You never show to anyone, right? And that's a process that many artists do, like my wife does.

[00:22:04] For me now, and especially working with Dave, what we see is like, how can we use technology to make lives better for artists? Cuz that's the work we do. And that's also why I love working on Adobe. Cuz you said that some companies are like, what, five years old? But Adobe is four years old and they're still at it, they're still building technology, to solve the creator's day-to-day problem.

[00:22:24] And I think that is really the point of it. And if you go backwards into history, like technology was always used to solve problems, right? So the measuring stick to fusion technology, like it's always there to solve a problem. And technology can be anything, right? So it could be software, it could be a shovel, right?

[00:22:41] So all of those things have been technologies. It's just today it's software. And I actually think that it's not enough that it's software and Peter Teal talks about this a lot, about, how can we go from the world of bits into the world of 

[00:22:55] Raad: atoms, 

[00:22:56] Kowsheek: right? And we need to make that transition.

[00:22:58] And but as it stands today, like the work I'm doing is about, okay, how do we make creators lives easier? Give them better tools, and like when I said about Dave, like his process for using technology to solve that creative problem is really interesting. And something to like unravel for me, that's something I'm still trying to learn from him.

[00:23:19] Yeah, I think that is really it. That's like how do you solve a problem and if you use something to solve a problem that is a technology slash a tool, if you wanna call it that.

[00:23:28] Raad: I heard one philosophical definition of technology being just an amplifier of intent, 

[00:23:32] Kowsheek: Interesting.

[00:23:32] Raad: and I think the point that you also made that technology does not have any moral direction, right? really depends problem and the intention. The question is, whose problem and whose intention? So it, it is an amplifier in the sense that whatever you want to do, it allows you to do it. It's a force multiplier, right? In that

[00:23:50] Kowsheek: right? Especially now technology because it's deflationary, so everything costs less and less. Technology just gets better and better, and things cost less and less, and now it's at scale. So that's what's happening on Twitter or Facebook, whatever you name it. Like the, just because a sheer number of people who are on the internet and the internet itself is a great example of that, right?

[00:24:14] So it started, to be very expensive and then became, , like almost a human right now to be, to have access to internet. So that means that at some point in time, the whole co world will be on the internet. So every person will be on the internet. So then what's the difference between the world and the internet?

[00:24:34] So I think at some point there will be that explosion and that's already happening, that there's that explosion of anything you make on the internet is like millions and millions of people are using, right? So it's an amazing time to be there. And I guess we're lucky about, you said, we talked about the nine 11 thing, but we're also that generation that's lucky to not have had computers, but now have computers and have some of the best computers ever.

[00:24:58] And it seems like computers are not gonna get much better. So I think we made it.

[00:25:03] Raad: we're also maybe the rare generation that remembers what it was like to not have a computer. I did not have internet till like maybe 99 or something. Speaking about technology that helps humanity and helps people, let's talk about psychedelics.

[00:25:19] We've talked, in fact, one of the, what I love and I think how I believe we actually bonded immediately is that the first call we had after, I DM you on Twitter, we immediately drove into cultural trauma and history and legacy and where we come from, and then we talked about, psychedelics and we bonded over our shared experience with psychedelics.

[00:25:41] Tell me about your most meaningful psychedelic experience and what it did for you or to you rather.

[00:25:48] Kowsheek: . Yeah, it's hard to say what it is it for or two. I'm not sure. I, I would just borrow a sentence from Tagore who's, a writer and a brilliant artist on his own Right. Says that some, a thought that 

[00:26:01] Raad: National, national poet of Bangles.

[00:26:03] Kowsheek: Of Bangladesh.

[00:26:04] Yes 

[00:26:04] yeah. One of the first noble laureates of that side of the world. If not the first he says that,

[00:26:10] Raad: Case in point, before you get to that, the first Noble Laureatte in literature was Robindronath Tagore from Bengal and Bangladesh and not Bob Dylan, although I like Bob Dylan a lot but people said first one. I'm like, no, there brown dude him

[00:26:26] Kowsheek: absolutely. This is, that's an example of how the erasure of our culture to some extent actually how we are, we're slowly being forgotten and we'll talk about that more, I'm hoping. So one of the things you said I love about that approach and what I think the experience of psychedelics did for me was that, all of this like trauma and ambition that I had for me, that experience of psychedelics or psychedelic experience made it clear like a thought that becomes clearer as you read poetry. and that is the line I'm borrowing from Tagore. And that's what I think I carried with me for almost 15 years now. That clarity of what I want to do with my life in terms of my ambition and what I'm leaving behind in terms of the burdens and the trauma, obviously you can't leave that behind. And that's something I had to address through being in a relationship with my wife who's challenged me a lot to evolve my world worldview and thinking deeper about the assumptions that I made about my culture and my background.

[00:27:26] But that experience was seminal for me about clarifying where I want to go and how I want to get there. And my experience was amazing because I got to deal with some close friends at Cherry Beach in Toronto. And what's awesome about Cherry Beach is that it has a very different perspective of Toronto where I grew up, but.

[00:27:46] And where I fully develop my adult personality. But when you go to that side of Toronto and Cherry Beach, you look to Toronto from its its Southmost side, which you don't see typically cuz everyone lives on the north of Toronto. So I think that change in perspective, the water and how it becomes clear when you're on that trip I think was something that's vivid.

[00:28:09] There's a mix of experience and clarity of thought that I've found super powerful. I've always gone back to when I've felt misdirected or confused about what I'm doing and, it really takes me, I don't even have to do those experiences anymore. It's just takes me a moment to think back to that experience and it like I can snap back to what the purpose is for me.

[00:28:31] And of course like that all evolves over time. But. . I think it was a very clarifying experience and I think that's what's really valuable about it. Cuz I think what's valuable about it is I think if you give people clarity, it's very easy to take the next step. So that's been invaluable for me.

[00:28:48] And I think that without that experience, I think I'd be much more confused and like bumbling through life . At least that's my assumption. Yeah, so it's been a, it's been a defining moment for me and I can, I'm just imagining it right now and it's very profound to me. Yeah.

[00:29:04] Raad: to those listening. Cherry Beach is a really special part of Toronto because it's built on, think it's basically reclaimed land southern, southeast part of Toronto, which has It used to be industrial port areas. It was then derelict and abandoned for a while, and as part of the Portland really extends into the water as reclaimed land.

[00:29:22] And now it's like a natural bird reserve and people go there to bike, but it extends into the water. And so from that perspective, you can see the high rises are all of Toronto, but from deep into the, from deep in the water, a very special vantage point. And that's what Kosik was referring to.

[00:29:39] You said things that I just wanna hear a little bit more about. One is it made your ambition more clear and it then changed your, or your wife helped you see the world differently. How did you see the world?

[00:29:53] Kowsheek: Oh, that's a great question. I think I saw it very doggedly. Focused on that ambition, that I wanted to excel I wanted to amplify my potential. And that meant just, what tangibly that meant is, 20 hour days and like just coding all the time and, being reckless with relationships and myself as a human right, as a being.

[00:30:16] And just, as they would say in, in startup culture, hustling, right? And to be fair, that was a very good defining moment for me because we got to build so many different startups, so many different ideas, deep technology that today I'm reaping the benefits of because I can go into different vectors of technology very fluidly, given that I spent, a long time building different products exploring different technologies, exploring different programming languages.

[00:30:43] So it gives me that versatility that's, I think very beneficial to me today. But of course, it came as a cost of relationships and personal wellbeing. And probably if I had sustained, you cannot sustain that. And if I had tried to 10 years, 20 years, now 15 years let's say it would just have been.

[00:31:02] Terrible and it would not sustain further longer. And as go mate, who's been also a great mentor, , who doesn't know about me he would say that people who live in that cycle of hyper ambition eventually become sick and go through different kinds of stress related illness, which I'm glad I'm gonna be avoiding, hopefully , but it's a constant struggle of course, cuz it's very easy to fall back, at least for me to snap back into that hyper ambitious slash focused work and not find that balance. But once again, I'm super thankful to my wife for keeping me in check with that about, hey, there's more to life than just the elegance of programming and the obsession of building Right.

[00:31:42] Raad: Yeah, I can definitely relate to that. I think there's the productive part of your life, the productivity. I'm defining in the pure economics of the whole thing. Ambition, career material things, money and all this stuff. And, but there's the other productive side of life that I think, just the richness of relationships and being and the experience and stuff like that. How much of that has changed for you since. That experience, and as it reverberates through your life now, is, how do you see the world now? Clearly the ambition is still there. That hasn't gone away since I met you. I know you to be very strong and an ambitious, but what part has changed?

[00:32:17] Kowsheek: Yeah, I think it's a very it's something I'm constantly learning and evolving. I'll give you an example, I guess to illustrate what the evolution has been. Before, as a manager and leading teams, I would be very ruthless about how we led our teams. Very metrics driven, very hierarchically like sound and trying to be very optimal with time.

[00:32:38] And these are the terms that I would always use. Are we, optimizing for time? Are we optimizing for efficiency? If someone isn't, they get cut, they get, removed from the team. It's very ruthless in certain businesses that made sense. But I think I've never really bonded with my team of developers, of coworkers, of, Executives, right?

[00:32:59] It's been very results oriented. But working with Dave, working with my current team who were my team at Brio and now my team at Adobe, and really going on the personal journey with everyone and including myself and really understanding each person their background. And once again, like the learnings from government mate spending a lot of time.

[00:33:19] I spent a lot many hours just learning all the work that gover ma mate put out and what he talks about. Stress, trauma and childhood trauma. Like how I could translate that and apply to my team to see like what is it that they're going through, what is it that I can help them with those things even though I'm not getting into their personal problems.

[00:33:39] Just observing from the outside, what is it that could be happening behind the scenes that I could help with. And I tell you like, it's really changed how I see my team and how I manage my team and how much I'm able to handle as a person of things that they may be going through. Which I'm pretty sure in the past I would not be able to, I would just be like, okay, this is too stressful for you.

[00:34:03] This is not gonna work, let's move on. Whereas now we are working to evolve each other. And I find that much more fulfilling. And I think that there's a profound sense of like meaning in that, right? Whereas yes, I'm not, maybe, we're not churning out code, but we're still building great stuff together.

[00:34:21] And that includes building relationships, building our personal evolution. I think those things are important as well, because. There's just there's just that many people you're gonna interface with, and it's important. You have that impact with them. And those are the things I think I realized with my relationship with my wife and with Dave.

[00:34:39] These are things that are more meaningful to me that I build in relationship with them, rather than just be like did that start up? I'm out of here . Building that depth is, I think, really I've been finding much more rewarding.

[00:34:49] Raad: Beautiful. have one more question related to this line of thinking or talking about psychedelics, I guess is. I told you I'd come back to this last line in your bio, which is you say, Kowsheek explores various cultural healing, meditative and ancient practices. So let's bring everything that you've said so far about where you grew up, your thirst for knowledge and history, your experience with psychedelics and becoming what sounds like a better kinder, a more fun person to be with

[00:35:22] And I

[00:35:23] say that

[00:35:23] As a high functioning, semi irritating person too. Why? Why? What does this mean? Various cultural healing, meditative and ancient practices.

[00:35:31] Kowsheek: Yeah. I think I, one of my, one of my other mentors, and this is the thing I think, in our culture we've lost a little bit as Bengali people, is we don't have mentors that can give us that background. As I was, rebuilding my personality, living in Toronto as an, as a solo student, I, spent a lot of time watching videos of Les Brown, Jim Ron, Jim Roan, I forget his name, but these people who are like, inspiration speakers.

[00:35:57] Learning from them. But one of the other people who had a big impact in my thinking and my approach to things is Christopher Hitchens, who is a contrarian by trade and nature and personality and all of that , and one of the things he would say is, he, people misunderstand, contrarians and including myself is contrarians are by nature looking and always hungrily operating on that margin of potentially great knowledge, discovery, wisdom.

[00:36:23] And that's a code from him. And I think that's what I've always had is like that hunger to learn and understand. And also when I was younger, we, my, my dad gave us access to read things like the Bible the Vedas the Quran, like all these, you ancient texts and all of them have wisdom, right?

[00:36:42] None of them were like, a boring book to read. They all had stories. They all had history and culture to share with you. So that's where I think learning still continues for me today. I am learning a lot from Buddhism and the native practices of North America about how you can still heal from trauma, how you can still find meaning in your struggle and those things.

[00:37:07] It's almost like an endless endeavor to learn these things. But I think every time I learn something new that comes from one of these cultures, , it has such deep impact because it's pervasive across all parts of our culture and all parts of our personal lives. To give you an example, if you learn about Ayurvedic approaches to sleep, right?

[00:37:27] How you could have different kinds of sleep, now there's modern interpretations of that, that all the high functioning CEOs of the world and all of us do non-sleep deep relaxation, which comes from Ayurvedic practice of of certain kind of meditation. So it's a very ancient knowledge.

[00:37:45] And ancient people were not stupid. They were like us. Our brains did not evolve over hundred to hundred years. They evolve over millions of years. That knowledge and that functioning that we have, they also had we just have to look to learn what they already knew or discovered.

[00:37:59] There's research now coming out about different parts of the subsystems of the body that people are finding aligned with the meridian lines of acupuncture kind of tradition. So it's you could, but if you go to Wikipedia right now, let's say it will say, oh, acupuncture is a pseudoscience.

[00:38:16] It's not necessarily, cuz we are only finding out and science is only opening up its minds to what could be possible trues from the, from ancient cultures. All of that to say that I think we shouldn't lose knowledge, we shouldn't lose wisdom that came from our side of the world and our cultures, just because it may not have gone through the whole process of enlightenment and the scientific revolution because there was still depth in understanding and knowledge that we can benefit from today.

[00:38:46] And we have been, if you look at yoga, if you look at, I mentioned NSDR, acupuncture, if you go to military things like, Confucius, like these are always referenced and we have been learning from those things. So if you learn from one, what's to say that the other one isn't just as true or just as steep?

[00:39:02] Why would you discount Ayurvedic practices when you do not discount yoga? Like it doesn't logically make sense. So that's the position of a contrarian is to say you've made these assumptions, but maybe there's knowledge you're missing out. And I think that's very important cuz in this age of AI and all of these things, what's really valuable is original thought. Because an original thought has not been scraped by, OpenAI or stability AI today. So an open like a new form of art has not been scraped by one of these AI algorithms. And only a human today can create that. And there's the other ancient knowledge I, I often derive from is Sufi poetry.

[00:39:45] There's this poet Shabestari, he talks about "it is the position of God to go from thought to action". And there's only one being on earth that can do that today, which is you can have a thought and you can act on that thought and that thought can be original, and that's only humans. We can do that. So it's just a very special position that we are in.

[00:40:05] And I take a lot of kind of, Pride in that, that we are able to do that despite all of the horrible things that we still are also able to do. 

[00:40:14] Raad: I'm gonna switch gears to the last bit of our podcast and we're gonna get a little more. let's just say ground level in terms of practicalities. You've gone to this amazing experience where this company and this technology that you built called Brio, this company that was eventually by Adobe last year. You were the head of technology at Brio.

[00:40:33] Tell us a little bit about what Brio was and just really quickly what that acquisition experience was like as an entrepreneur, but also as an individual and in terms of the ambition you were talking about earlier, and then let's move into what you're building.

[00:40:50] Kowsheek: Yeah, for sure. The reason I joined Brio is in 2018 ish time I decided to leave FinTech cause that's where I was doing most of my work in. So in Toronto that's like the mainstay of technology work that people do. Cuz I went to an in conference called about innovation and FinTech innovation and someone said, oh, the greatest thing we did is eat transfer, money transfer thing.

[00:41:10] I was like, what? And at that moment I realized that I was not fulfilling my potential and I think I decided really by the time I was leaving that I'm gonna leave the industry. So I was looking for something new and, the universe conspires to make that happen through a friend. I got connected to Brio.

[00:41:26] and as I went to meet them, just the people who were building the company. So Dave, Kenny the CFO of company the parent company is called Spin. They were just like amazing, inspiring people that I saw myself in. People of color people of style, they're put together and, they represent so well.

[00:41:43] It's just, I just saw myself in them and I was very grateful that I got the opportunity to work with them. And I did, I forced myself to level up further than what I was doing before. And work harder, work more with the balance, with a newfound balance. Cuz I was also dating my wife at the time.

[00:42:01] that we built something amazing and we by the time of the acquisition almost 2, 2, 2 and a half years later we had 40,000 users on the platform. A terabyte of data, fresh data every month being transferred from the platform. And what the product was is a web-based 3D presentation tool.

[00:42:17] So you'd create a 3d, product that you're selling post it on your site, have people experience it in augmented reality. And we did this, this is what I meant about the visionary aspect of what Dave does. We did this before anyone else in the industry to be able to do it at scale like that.

[00:42:31] And I think that's what Adobe found valuable, and that's what we are bringing to the table today in what we do at 3D and immersive at Adobe. So currently what I'm building is about empowering creators and how do we make 3D more accessible to people, how do we make some of these technologies that we see at Adobe Research and the amazing work that some of our coworkers do.

[00:42:53] How do we bring that to the users? Do that at scale, use cutting edge technology to do so I'm really privileged, in many ways to be working on these things and feel really proud about that. But I guess what also I'm thinking about is like, how does technology help the diaspora of Bengali people and like other people too.

[00:43:11] That's something that I've been like scratching at is there needs to be some way to solve that problem too. Cuz I think there's this lack of connection in our in our diasporas. How do you. solve that problem. So those are things I'm thinking about. But day to day I'm getting to work with some of the best 3D artists in the world and 3D builders in the world product builders in the world.

[00:43:35] So it's very privileged position to be in and I'm just constantly trying to level up and build products with them. And, with my team helping them grow and working with them really closely to build something cool and build the next thing that I think we could be proud of.

[00:43:52] Raad: That's amazing. To build something and then two and a half years later to be bought out by one of the best known technology brands in the world, Adobe, like who hasn't used PDF readers and Photoshop. It's it's of crazy to me. 

[00:44:06] Kowsheek: It's a testament really to, it's a testament to what I'm, like I mentioned earlier, what I'm trying to learn from Dave as a maker, how he approaches building products, this is the second business he sold to an A listed company, like previous company sold to Autodesk.

[00:44:20] So it's a, that's what I'm really trying to learn, but it's also a testament to what Adobe values, like they see us doing the work and they see someone like Dave leading that. I think they also value great work, great thinking dedication to users, and that's been the history of Adobe as well.

[00:44:36] Like everything from Photoshop to PDF to, all of the products and substance it's in the service of creators, right? It's in the service of helping people do their work. And I think that's what we really excel at and that's what we said about technology. I think that's why Adobe's such a great technology company that's been around for 40 years.

[00:44:53] It's no mean feat to be able to do that, right? most companies don't survive. So to be able to do this in and out for 40 years. And if you think about a lot of the technology that's seminal to our world was built by Adobe. So images, Photoshop, flash

[00:45:11] Raad: After

[00:45:11] Effects 

[00:45:12] Kowsheek: after effects. Yeah. All of these things, they're all built by Adobe and, it's privileged for me to be able to be here and do the work we do.

[00:45:21] Yeah.

[00:45:21] Raad: Amazing. Last question. So I wanna bring it all together. Condense it. You mentioned contrarian thinking, but I think contrarians also serve a purpose in the sense that they promote convergent thinking as well. Like, how do you draw from all these other places and have an original thought or an original synthesis of something.

[00:45:41] So bringing it all together, role as a Bengali, as an immigrant, as a successful technology entrepreneur, a founder, a husband, a friend, a psychonaut. What role does technology play in the fragmented world that we live in today? And you didn't touch on this enough. But going back to what you were building and the problem you're solving, fragmented diaspora of people around the world, role does technology play in this?

[00:46:10] Bringing all experiences and philosophies together.

[00:46:13] Kowsheek: Yeah. I think it really has to enable and scale the problem that everyone faces, right? I think as there's a epidemic of loneliness in the world. Diasporas are not able to connect to the different parts of the world that people live in. And I think technology just needs to, even though I love technology and I do it, but I do not, I'm not obsessed by it.

[00:46:37] I'm not taken away by its allure. There's this book, one of my favorite books called Flowers for Algernon. And not to spoil it for everyone, but the bottom line in that book is that you cannot fall in love with your own intelligence. And I mean that as a collective. You cannot fall in love with technology that you cannot see past it.

[00:46:55] And that's why, I've often had the contrarian position. When I see a hype cycle to be like, maybe it is not a hype cycle, maybe it is not the next big biggest thing because if it was, a lot of the basic problems would be solved and today they are not solved yet. So energy is not solved today. So yes, AI can be the next big thing, but if it hasn't solved energy, for example, to me it's not the next biggest thing, right?

[00:47:20] So I see it that way and I think technology should be used to solve these big problems connecting the world of atoms and the bits together. And that's how I try to position those problems I'm solving always from what we do at Adobe to the problems we solved before and what I'm hoping to solve in the future. Is that, how do you connect the dots and how do you do it at scale? Because that's what technology can do for you, is you do it at scale. You can connect billions of people at once and really empower them not in the way where the old guard of technology where you're extracting from people, meaning advertising, data, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:47:59] But really help people make connection like we did on Twitter or make their next right decision or find their next right thing to do. So I think those are the things that technology needs to be able to enable, and those are things I'm hoping to build, but once again, I'm not distracted by the lure of it, where it is not the be all end all that should be there.

[00:48:20] What is be all end all is what I said earlier about humans. Like we are actually the creators of the technology. We're not beholden to them. And we shouldn't be. And I don't think we will be, because we have a knack for getting around those issues no matter what happens. Yeah I really think it's about empowering the human and doing it at scale.

[00:48:38] That's what I think technology can do for us.

[00:48:40] Raad: So well said. And it's also, to me, it's about using technology to remember and go back to the basics, which is about connection. It is about history and culture. It's about belonging and things like that. And in the way that technology can enable that. Of course, you have to solve the first of problems, energy and food and shelter.

[00:49:00] An optimist. I share the optimism with you in that sense. I think we can, but we cannot be obsessed with our own creation. In your own words. So fantastically said. Kowsheek, this was a pleasure. I feel as we always do in our casual chats, we can keep talking for hours, but it was fantastic to have you and thanks a lot for sharing your experience and your wisdom with us.

[00:49:20] Kowsheek: Thank you because I think the work you're doing here and also like just the relationship I have with you has been one of the greatest things I've come across in a long time. Cuz it's given me a sense of belonging that I didn't think I would be able to have. And I didn't know I had it.

[00:49:37] I had missed it till I had it, which was awesome. And I, and you continue to do the same for I'm sure a lot of people, which is amazing. So thank you.

[00:49:46] Raad: I appreciate saying that, brother. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.