1_3 Javid Jah: Grafitti, Hip-Hop, and Islamic Mysticism

Raad Seraj: [00:00:00] Hello friends. Welcome to minority trip report. MTR is a podcast for underrepresented views and live journeys with mental health, psychedelics and consciousness. I'm your hos, Raad Seraj. 

Today, my guest's Javid Jah. With a background in public art and an education in architecture, Javid's practice explores the traditional origins of sacred geometry. He works in multiple disciplines to produce work that is site specific, spatial, and symbolically aligned to cosmic archetypes based in Toronto, Canada. His work integrates various techniques from the Islamic arts and traditional architectural concepts, such as Muqarnas. Javid is inspired by the study of cosmology and forms that express the unseen dimensions of existence.

Raad Seraj: Javid, thanks so much for joining me. 

Javid Jah: Thank you for having me. 

Raad Seraj: You have a fascinating background and I've known you for years, we've even worked together and this is an episode that I'm extremely excited to record because, amongst other things, you're also a Muslim, you're also an [00:01:00] artist.

Raad Seraj: I am also a Muslim and an artist albeit in different ways. And I think it's not very often where Muslim artists, immigrants come on podcasts or talk about not only mental health, but transcendence.

Raad Seraj: I wanna start from a quote that I found on a CBC article that talked about a day in the life of Javid Jah.

Raad Seraj: I'm gonna start there cuz I think it really captures what you're trying to do. And there's obviously a lot here that I wanna talk about, but let me start with this quote, which is you say "as a Muslim, growing up in a secular society, I felt one way to channel my history was to learn Arabic and study its calligraphy through the medium of graffiti". So I know lots of Muslim friends who are studying calligraphy. I don't know a lot about the history I wanna learn, but you decided to channel it through graffiti. Why graffiti? 

Javid Jah: It's funny sometimes you hear quotes. Not, not very often, but sometimes they come across or somebody tells you and you're like, oh, I said that shit but [00:02:00] this one I'm okay with like today when I contextualize I do a lot of writing for proposals cause I'm in public art world and.

Javid Jah: there's a long process to get an artwork going. And so you have to talk about yourself a lot of versions of biographies and artist statements and expressions of interest. And one of the themes that is reoccurring for me, that I position myself is that revisiting traditional principles through contemporary means So in a sense that's what that quote is saying. Graffiti is like a contemporary discipline that I was exposed to, that I was interested in part of this kind of umbrella of hip hop that I gravitated towards. Couldn't explain why and graffiti as many facets, right? There's the whole spectrum from like vandalism and tagging to murals and now street art, that whole thing.

Javid Jah: But as a broad spectrum, I saw it as an extension of just the act of writing. And calligraphy is very much that it's, that. It's understanding that there's so much embedded in the meaning of a [00:03:00] concept itself that how it's expressed the form, it takes has to be a reflection of that inner beauty. So therefore its forms, its proportions, its its appearance has to have the same energy and magnitude as meaning.

Javid Jah: So therefore the name and especially in Islam because Isma, Huk like the divine names have such a high like they're such a tremendous field of inspiration. From a theological philosophical point of view. So for me naming and even myself being very confused by my name, growing up Java which has farce roots and can mean eternal, but also has Arabic roots and means generous.

Javid Jah: But anyways, that's Jawed. But so the act of naming the act of writing, and then the idea that, we're living in today's terms is one thing to take a piece of bamboo and shave it, dip it in ink. And I've done that. And I've learned and studied traditional calligraphic practice.

Javid Jah: That's part of the revisiting, the traditional, you [00:04:00] can't YouTube tutorial it, you can to a certain degree, but you have to actually practice it. Not just theoretically. Oh, I got it. Now, let me go. And then the modern technique, pick up the can pick up the marker, play with it, understand it, do the, go through the ropes of the contemporary practice and then see where you land, see where that takes you, because that's, that, that was a mode of me trying to understand and trying to understand with the lens that I'm wearing right now, what our ancestors were doing with these practices.

Raad Seraj: What is the act of doing, the practice itself, what does it do in terms of connecting to tradition? You mentioned you could look at a YouTube video, but why is picking up that shaved bamboo stick or the spray can, whatever it is, why is that important in terms of connecting to tradition? How does that work?

Javid Jah: It's like people who watch cooking shows, but don't cook those meals or home renovations and never renovate. Even as a designer I'm going to tell you how to design a house, but I've never framed a wall. Like you don't know [00:05:00] all of the, you don't have a care or sensibility for all the small craft involved in making something.

Javid Jah: There's so much there from the material side of it, like knowing the materials, knowing the precision, measuring twice, cutting once, there's that. And then there's also like the attitude required, like the humility that you don't know, everything. The act of man, this takes time.

Javid Jah: I need to allocate time for this, the mental space. Like I can't work in a room that's flooded with other stuff I need to find in a place of balance. So all of those things come with the doing and you can't get there. It's like almost like the idea of spiritual knowledge versus academic knowledge.

Javid Jah: One sense you can take courses and reads and build your intellect from a rational perspective, but divine knowledge in the, in the tradition that, that I understand it and have researched is not something you can acquire by those means it takes patience, purity, time, reflection. And it's a gift. It's a, that sort of doing is very different. I like to frame [00:06:00] it in terms of active and passive passive, meaning I'm receptive to something and active meaning I'm forcing on something you have to learn to be passive and yet active simultaneously to be doing. 

Raad Seraj: Yeah. I really re resonate with that. I think this is why art in the, and by art, anything that is expressing some true or inner truth, right? Whether it's art through music, dance, or even, some people get into the flow of things. If you're working, I think in some ways that is also artistic, but I think to your point, the exercise is important because there's something deeply contemplative and you develop a reverence for whatever it is.

Raad Seraj: So that's cooking, graffiti, whatever have you like, it's the reverence that builds a further, I guess that's where tradition comes from. Maybe. Is it contemplation, I'm curious, like where did this pension for tradition come from? Like, how did you grow up? Tell me a little bit about that. What was your world like?[00:07:00] 

Javid Jah: Yeah. The interesting thing is, when you get so deep into a subject matter that those to have vocabulary has different meanings than for everyone else. So if you go deeper into existential philosophy or perennialism, or any of the transcendental philosophies, which are outside of the main logic in Western philosophical realm, even outside of Aristotle and Plato, then tradition has a different meaning is capital T tradition and probably the best scholar who's defined.

Javid Jah: That would be say hue Nassar in like contemporary Islamic terms. And he would define tradition as a recognition that there is one origin to all think. So if you take a look at that definition, it's very universal. All, is it all it's saying is that everyone points to that there's a center and a center means that there was one source and that you return to that one source.

Javid Jah: So you can look across the board from Hinduism to, Islam, as we see it through [00:08:00] various facets of Christianity across the board, even into indigenous varieties of traditions and see that, that, that is a like an underlying overlapping concept, even in the guise of Hinduism, even the polytheism there still ends up being transcendent centers.

Javid Jah: So that's how I looked at tradition. And I came across that maybe 10, 15 years ago. Not knowing that was what I was talking about when I was discussing tradition. but my upbringing was like my parents. Not necessarily my dad, but my, my mom was was very religious. And were you born in Canada? Yeah, I was born in Toronto when we, when I was very young, we returned, like my parents are born in east Africa. We're Indian. Born in east Africa. And so I went when I was very young for a little bit and then came back. And then I was on the west coast for a while.

Javid Jah: Then came back. It's always been like, go from Toronto, come back. But my mom and my grandmother taught me prayer, like recitation at a young age. Like recitation of Koran, [00:09:00] recitation of duas at a young age. And they taught it to me in a way that was connected to song. To. So I was, I really bought into those tunes.

Javid Jah: I was really cultivated into that and I enjoyed the performance. Like I enjoyed going up at the front of the Muji Hanukah or whatever you want to call it. And leading at a very young age, I must have been four years old when I led the first ethos fitro so I was like, I was that's pretty impressive.

Raad Seraj: I have to say 4 years old... 

Javid Jah: I was sculpted into this. Yeah. And I, not necessarily I know what I'm saying, and even you hear some people and they have their favorite cloud or reciter and some people, they don't like to listen to kids recite because they know the kid doesn't necessarily understand the meaning.

Javid Jah: But versus somebody who is, so the nuances of their voice, are being projected in the sounds they create, but, I think that's where my foundation was, is Having a very intimate relationship with scripture. 

Raad Seraj: When you see your mom, your family was religious, do you mean [00:10:00] in the sort of like practicing sense or like how were they religious or how did you relate to religion at that time?

Raad Seraj: You spoke a little bit about 

Javid Jah: That's a good question. I was gonna footnote that word, religious point. It's defined differently by your community. Our community is doesn't have the same religiosity in terms of rules. It's more principles. So, for us, I think religious, I would define religious as regularly attending congregational prayer.

Javid Jah: And regular remembrance outside of religious domains. In our. In the broad spectrum, it was like, there are many expressions of the divine outside of prayer. A good example would be roomy, and now contemporary communities and, whether like you're into yoga or Zen or whatever, all these kind of ne Neo spirituality zones exist in the urban fringe or urban centers.

Javid Jah: Part of me it's you pick up roomi with this new eye oh, what was he talking about? But historically [00:11:00] roomi is just one example of a number of different poets who were this describing the divine and putting it in song all the time. . And so a lot of those a lot of those things were codified by our ancestors had passed down orally and my grandmother and my mom would always be singing them. 

Raad Seraj: I this is the kind of stuff. This is why exactly why I was so excited to speak with you because I deeply resonated with that idea, but I did grow up with a very twisted, confused version of Islam because I spent 14 years in Saudi Arabia growing up there. And I, we were gonna talk about your experience in Saudi shortly.

Raad Seraj: Yes. On one hand it was this dogmatic oppressive, every worse, bad thing you can imagine. And I ironically it was a center of Islam, i, we lived in mucca and then moved to JDA for a number of years and to watch that. And then of course the racism that my family and I experienced there, it wasn't racism, actually the right word for it is classism.

Raad Seraj: It's [00:12:00] not so much racism that poor people tend to look a certain way. But on the other hand, I felt this like exceptional sense of peace when I walked into a mosque. The tall ceiling fans, the tall ceilings, the soft carpet, so they go in there, this is a reverence and people are in a deeply meditative state, right?

Raad Seraj: So it's like this confusing sense of what dogma is. And religion is while superimposed on what religion or Jossy like you said, the ritualistic aspects of, meditating and going inwards, which is where P where it can be very powerful. Both my parents are very practicing Muslims and I see what prayer and religion does for them and faith and I've.

Raad Seraj: So I've gone from being completely anti religion, almost like vehemently anti-religion to now finding it my way. And I really resonate with what you just said and the way you describe religiosity, 

Javid Jah: Yeah. I. To add to that. I meet a lot of people who express and they weren't close to the center, they were close to [00:13:00] Mississauga center.

Javid Jah: They weren't in Mecca. And I even recently being in Saudi and speaking to people who share this feeling and not even just those from a class that were treated lesser, like even from Arab, some, that weren't necessarily treated the same way, but I, I think that it's, I don't think that it's I'm very inspired by the scholar named ABI.

Javid Jah: Who's called the, she the greatest master . And one of the things he says is a very interesting story. When he was a teenager, he was introduced to Aros, Igni, Russian, who was the great theologian Arista Olian scholar of Sevi and Andalusia at that time, his 12th century. and he met, he comes face to face with this young team, the sensation IA and Aros is huge figure , of logic or Callam in Islamic theology.

Javid Jah: And he goes, they just look at each other. This is IA describing it, the experience, and the guy looks at him and he goes, so is it true? [00:14:00] This is what he says and what he means by. So is it true, is that are the experiences you've had of the divine confirming or are confirming the logic that we have? The conclusions we have come to biologic about the truth, or are they not?

Javid Jah: That's what he's asking. And the young I Iby looks at him and he says, yes and no. And that seems to be II B's position throughout, which is what makes him so difficult. For Orthodox Islam, to accredit him because how can you take the position of yes and no simultaneously? How can you say that?

Javid Jah: Yes, I get it. You have a bad taste from religion and no, it's a beautiful thing. That coexistence is the essence of understanding that you're in a spiritual world simultaneously as a physical. 

Raad Seraj: There's a quote that I actually have the tattoo of it's is by a sage.

Raad Seraj: And it goes love tells me I'm [00:15:00] everything wisdom tells me I'm nothing. And between the, these two banks runs the river. That is my life. I find it extremely beautiful because it speaks to what you just said. It's both realizing that the universe is within you, but you're also absolutely insignificant

Javid Jah: Yeah. That's a great quote. And wisdom is a, is an amazing word. That's Hickma in Arabic which is different than IM, which can be used the science and modify, which is OSIS. So higher spiritual knowledge. And then you have ish, which is love. If you're taking the path of people like NABI.

Javid Jah: Yeah. That river is a great metaphor because it requires the sensitivity and compassion of love, but also the hunger of the mind to find peace via knowledge. 

Raad Seraj: That's. That's pretty amazing. What do you think people. Not understand about someone like roomy, cuz he is like a cultural archetype.

Raad Seraj: We, everybody knows him like you're saying, but... 

Javid Jah: I [00:16:00] it's the same way that in that quote you started with, I said like I wanted, I needed to learn Arabic because it wasn't just about lost in translation because yeah, there are a lot of, if you could compare seven Quranic translations and they're very different use of Ali and pic tall are not the same study Quran is very different.

Javid Jah: So yes, you can see it that there's lost in translation. Even describing Ramma are you gonna describe someone Aman and discuss the womb? Are you gonna discuss how the womb is exemplifies Rema? Or you just gonna talk about what it means to be compassionate? Because the thing about learning a language is you access a network of ideas that are encoded in sounds.

Javid Jah: You, if you just read a translation of it, you can't access this whole other. network almost like fungi under a forest, connecting all the and fungi. That's just for your secondary talking but there's these connections that exist in, in letter sound, shape of letter composition of word [00:17:00] that make the profoundly that make the me make you touch the meaning in ways that are beyond how you just write it and read it and hear it.

Javid Jah: So that's why it's important. That's why I think it's important to get into etymology. And I think that's where the access to roomy has a, I don't wanna call it a blockage, but a barrier to entry because nobody's taking it in Fari in general. There are some really interesting newer translations that have the Fari side by side with the English, but also have a breakdown of certain words in the Fari and their meaning so that you can start to.

Javid Jah: Like Rumi has a great poem that compares the lion to milk. But like that's oblivious to you. If you don't understand that the lion and milk have the same etymological root sheer, and sure. So sheer and sure. It's just a slight change, an intonation and you move from this, the king of the animals to like the most noble list [00:18:00] of substances that humans can create, a food.

Raad Seraj: That's so interesting cuz in Bangla sure, sure. Means like the stuff that flows to the surface of milk when you heat it up that milk protein. This is it. And Cher obviously is it lion right? It's that's 

Raad Seraj: crazy. so those that's what really gets me going. And that even gets me back to graffiti, seeing how people repurpose their names.

Raad Seraj: Seeing how they redefine themselves. It's really interesting to me how they write even how you write yourself. Like you could write excited in small little letters or excited with just a huge X big, someone caps you in text and you're like, why are you screaming at me? You know, like, there's a whole bunch of readings within what we're reading.

Raad Seraj: And, especially in the Islamic tradition if IRA, if IRA is like the first word that angel Gira Ali Salam says the prophet Moham, Sal LA with Salam, it's like Reed, he's telling, he's saying Reed. It's. There for you. 

Raad Seraj: Man, this is so fascinating to me. I absolutely love this conversation so far.

Raad Seraj: I wanna bring [00:19:00] us down back to your roots for a little bit, cuz I, it, I think it's really, I'm fascinated by how you went from like having these ritualistic practices, experience of religion in this particular sense in the community to like, how did you find your way to hip hop and then architecture particularly, was there always I want experience and understand Islamic architecture?

Raad Seraj: Was that the way or how, what, where's the connection there? 

Javid Jah: I gravitated to just what happened to be around me and what to like what, to me echo the same principle. Like I, basketball to me is a big part of my life. I'm not really that great, but I can shoot a three. So don't leave me open.

Javid Jah: Basketball is a really deeply ingrained in my roots. I don't know how, I don't know really why. I gravitated to it because it was, there was something. just me and a court and watching this ball revolve this perfect sphere kind of fall into an orbit. And you having to repeat that [00:20:00] movement in a fluid fashion, it was like the whole use of the body release go into your desired location.

Javid Jah: Return to you is a perfect cycle. Not everybody you gonna come across who look at a culture or sport or activity and see it through those lenses three, see it through this like cosmological universal archetypal lens. I just happen to do that. It just happened to be that way as a kid, like a, so to answer your question hiphop naturally just, I think is just a result of rhyming.

Javid Jah: Like I think as a kid, I was like, I start, I was probably like 13 and I just started writing NA's rhymes, like just listening and writing stop. What did he say? And like writing full verses out I did the same thing with common. All his first three albums are just written out and as I wrote out common, I noticed all of this puns, like common was almost writing for people to read him.

Javid Jah: It's. So full of puns. It's so full of word, [00:21:00] play letter play it's ridiculous. So then that led me into free styling, again, like rap. I spent a lot of time in a sound studio helping at a community center, helping people record. I was part of a different various hip hop groups. I never wanted to perform and be a rapper.

Javid Jah: Like I enjoyed it, but I didn't also it, I wasn't feeling what the image of hip hop. Like I maybe I was too insecure to be a rapper. I didn't feel good about that. Maybe I felt like, yo, what is a brown man doing on stage? I think that was an immature and insecure feeling, but I actually, it was real for me.

Javid Jah: So I didn't go that way, but I would friends of mine who continued like escalating, let's say professionally, whatever that means. But for me, rap was really important and it reminded me of the Quran. Like to me, the rest of the Quran is pure rap. Like it's and it's divine rap, and you can even there's studies of of like south African shamanism that connect to the Wutang clan.

Javid Jah: And like they have these [00:22:00] spirits that believe that there's these spirits that overtake you and allow you to flow, so that was the hip hop side of things. I think hip hop naturally bleeds into basketball. We grew up in the era of, and one shoes and Iverson and Jordan, and there's just all this culture jamming that really brought those things together around.

Javid Jah: hard to take away hip hop from playing basketball else in the park. It's hard to separate these things, fashion. They're all very connected. So I, and me then recognizing like, people like common and NAS other people, like even to a jail electronica, even when Jay-Z says in Shala, like if it comes from Jay and ho considerate Koran, like these guys are saying these things, it's kind of, it's kind of, I mean, you could call it blasphemous depending on how thing you are, but in another sense, it's just awesome.

Javid Jah: It's I love to see hearing Dave Chappelle was a Muslim a few years ago. I was like, wow. Yeah. I love to see that. So I think all of these things just [00:23:00] overlapped each other and bridged into one just and it's identity building too, because you're an immigrant and, Like you come from immigrant families and you're looking and you're searching and you'd be like I don't know if I resonate with, these uncles telling me I have to stay in the mustard all the time.

Javid Jah: I just want to go, be outside in the parking lot, whatever. I just want to chill. I want to go play. Why should I have to be in here right now? And then, balancing that with seeing the people that you look up to, people that you respect actually, part of the faith and being like, wow.

Javid Jah: Okay. Yeah. I see that. There's something like Raim, like when Raim a lot, there's a song called who is God I think I was, I must on 18 or 19, when I heard that, that just, that was it. I just heard that song and I was like, that's it. There's not even a question. there's not even a question here.

Javid Jah: This is the truth. 

Raad Seraj: That's fucking incredible because you. For me, I think my return to Islam in a way, in my own way, the challenge was really like, how do you find your way to God in your own way? And you experienced that to hiphop. For [00:24:00] me, it was always like rock music for me that was like, rebellion, the rage that I felt that was channeled through rock.

Raad Seraj: I played sports for a little bit. So I had the feel as in the eing. So I remember that whole part, like those fucking shoes were dope and it's like kind of crazy to see them all come back in that way. Like those you know, the Nikes with a big air on the side. I had that pair and I it's fucking crazy that it's come back like 20 years later. It's wild. But yeah. Do you know about a guy called Michael Mohamed Knight? 

Javid Jah: I mean the first two names are so popular. It's like many of them, but no, I don't. 

Raad Seraj: So this guy's got a crazy story and I Don discovered him like last year. So this guy. He's this white kid from like New York, I think he grew up or Jersey at 13, he was his first time he was exposed to, I think the Quran or some sort of Islamic sort of teachings.

Raad Seraj: He converted by 15 and he's this Irish American kid who converted and [00:25:00] then couldn't relate to anybody because he was like this, grungy, white kid, and then you fall and become a Muslim. Anyway he writes he literally becomes a writer, right? He's currently a professor at the university of south Florida something like that.

Raad Seraj: But he writes a book called a Tawa course Tao. I think me literally translates to devotion. I think so maybe, this better than I do, but God consciousness. So he writes this book called qua core, right? Like hardcore. So in is it like the sort of, punk metal, things like that. And it's just a completely fictional story about a bunch of snotty noses, Muslim kids in Buffalo, New York who start a punk rock band completely fictional.

Raad Seraj: But you got like this Renegade woman who wears the BAA, you got like a Muslim kid, a Pakistani kid with a Mohawk, and they're in this shitty, , basement playing punk rock music. And they named it Tawa core. It's about being punk, but also being super Muslim. And he writes this other book called aah, Ika, it [00:26:00] blew my fucking mind.

Raad Seraj: I've never experienced anyone who like SP speaks about these identities and how it's incredible, how powerful that was. Cuz Michael. he talks about how after he wrote the book for years, he'd had these nodding, those kids run up to him and go like, where the fuck can I find this band?

Raad Seraj: Where's Tawa core. He's it's made up. And he is like, what it's fucking made up. Then some kid starts the band called Tawa core and it's. Oh, that's awesome. It's amazing. Like, I can so relate in the way you're talking about it's like, how do you find Islam? How do you become Muslim? But in your own way, not from these dogmatic uncles who fucking like shit on you, but from your own way, did you, did, what did your parents think? Like you went through this journey I don't know if you had siblings or like what did they think? 

Javid Jah: I mean, I just wanna comment on one thing is like the hybrid identities which continue to hybrid and hybrid on a species of vegetation that continues to mutate and.

Javid Jah: Grow with others. And so we incessantly are like [00:27:00] recording and trying to keep up with species and be like, oh, this is amazing. There's this? And so the quantitative scientific mind is like blown away cuz they can't capture everything. Right. But all of this newness of hybridness is just a reflection of the divine principle of infinity that as the message spreads and we continue each, every soul, even the identical twins are different.

Javid Jah: Everything is constantly moving towards the infinite. And so no two things can be the same and yet they are of the same essence. So I just wanted to point out that the hybrid identities reminds me of this wonderful inner reality that we're always constantly moving towards infinite.

Javid Jah: But in terms of my parents of like, I think at times I felt My mom has always been very loving and supportive and never I think, and never restricting any, anything I maybe wanting to restrict my behavior. Like, don't go out too late or don't hang around that kid or whatever like that.

Javid Jah: But even my dad, they were [00:28:00] very much, they saw at a young age that I was just making and doing and experimenting and was hardworking by nature. Like I'm a Capricorn and we just, I just tend to just go. And if I put my mind to do something that I'm pretty much gonna go get it, do it. It might not be good, but I'm gonna follow through with it.

Javid Jah: So I think they saw at a young age, just let this kid do what he wants. He's gonna figure it out. Obviously it would mess up, come back home broke sometimes. Like I, I took some serious risks and went to Africa for, I had a 2, 3, 2, 3 year period where I was just, I would come home, work a crappy job for a couple months and then just book out and try and paint thinking.

Javid Jah: I was gonna be like some kind of hybrid between Maha ma Gandhi and shake the paint brush. That's pretty cool though. Just wanted to be some like, kind of humanitarian, but it just so I think they, there were times that were like, yeah, they're worried. But most of the time I think they saw I had a spark and they just let me be, my sister was, is six [00:29:00] years younger.

Javid Jah: And she was around, so they was she took up enough attention for me, but I think also those families treat men differently. Like unfortunately that the reality of that generation. But there, there wasn't. And then when I decided to do architecture, I think that, from an Indian perspective, oh, it's a profession that everyone just just calms down.

Javid Jah: It's oh, you're not gonna be painting in the streets anymore. Okay, cool. Yeah, this is great. you know, little, do they know? Like, I mean, architecture is not the profession. I would nine out of 10 people who ask me, but should I do architecture? I'm like for you? No. 

Raad Seraj: It's probably funny because like they're relieved.

Raad Seraj: They were like, oh, you're not a doctor engineer, but at least you're not fucking off every few months. And okay, just, you got a job. It's just we can tell our cousins and our family about it. Right. 

Javid Jah: Yeah. You know, like, I mean, and to do a architecture, you have to take a master's. So that was really, difficult for me cuz I never had finished a bachelor.

Javid Jah: So I had to figure out how to get a master's program to accept me. [00:30:00] So all to say that there were ways in my path to check boxes in terms of the immigrant parent mentality and at the same time, pursue my own. 

Javid Jah: Did you feel. Muslim all along. Or were you would you walk away from that identity for a while in order to find your way back?

Javid Jah: The thing is that I wasn't accustomed to defining Islam in terms of the rituals. I know that I meet a lot of, and I'm friends with, I meet a lot of participate in a lot of Muslim communities where that is the case. But to like, when you look, when I started studying Arabic, or if you look deeper at the root of this term Muslim and where it comes from Islam it's not really a religion.

Javid Jah: It's just humanity. It's just a human saying. I submit to something greater and that something greater being won. So, and then those who don't. it doesn't make them any less [00:31:00] Muslim. It's just that they're not recognizing their Islam city. So that was my view, which was obviously radical, like to, depending who you speak to, that might be like, oh, you don't understand.

Javid Jah: But to me I honestly just felt it was, there was no different than a human who decides to, obviously there are moments where I'd go out and even as I spoke before, when you openly identify with other Muslims, there's a feeling of community brotherhood, sisterhood. That makes you feel great. You're sharing this. I remember being in India and being in HBA and the city was super Muslim and feeling wow, this is really cool to be at home in a sense not only just everyone's brown, but that everyone's celebrating Islam at the same time. But I just think that there's.

Javid Jah: Sometimes it feels so restrictive. And my uncle's name is HEIF. And if, when you look at this word HEIF, like that's really just means the faith of Adam, whichever Adam, apparently there's thousands of [00:32:00] Adams, but the last Adam his submission to the creator of the universe that is HEIF.

Javid Jah: That is, to me, the true Deen, like that is Islam to me. 

Raad Seraj: It's such a important thing. Like you can talk about Islam as obedience submission, or I like your definition because what I've come to understand is the sort of it's giving into the vastness of the unknown. Right. It's almost being humbled that I know.

Raad Seraj: That's great. My all the shit that's in my head, it's all made up in some ways that I am I'm. While it's important, it's also, again, completely insignificant and submitting to the fact that there are things that I will not know is both humbling, but also kind of magical because you can pursue any path.

Raad Seraj: You got it. 

Javid Jah: You said it, that one word, Soto buckle are the first verse of the second chapter. If you understand, or if you recognize that there is an unseen dimension to existence and it's beyond your [00:33:00] rational enterprise, and then it's just about whether or not you want to cultivate what you want to move closer to the light of that understanding in the darkness.

Javid Jah: That to me is a submission. So I love the way you framed it. 

Raad Seraj: Thank you. No I completely agree with that. I think I wanna talk a little bit about your art and I think to me again, this is how I found you. This is how I have this like deep respect for. How you helped me understand Islam differently.

Raad Seraj: And I, that's why I think I, such respect for you because I, it really opened my eyes and we obviously worked together during and a residency. And your piece was the central piece of the house. And for those who don't know, and a residency was basically an not-for-profit that a few friends. And I started a couple of years ago.

Raad Seraj: And the whole idea was we took over transient spaces in the city and we threw this sort of like art parties for lack of a better word. But the idea was all the art was curated in transitional space, [00:34:00] by local artists in the community. We would throw like a four day art party and then the space would be demolished.

Raad Seraj: So there was a transient, there was a reverence for, how art is supposed to be, which is always moving, you are an artist in that and going back to your art, like the way you describe it in your bio is you say words like Islamic mysticism, cosmic archetype, sacred geometry.

Raad Seraj: And then my favorite part of this is unseen dimensions of existence. Those are very heavy words. tell me how it relates to graffiti the work that you do. Tell me about the recent experience of Saudi Arabia, which has been fascinating, but yeah. Why do these words matter so much to you and what are you trying to say through the arch you make?

Javid Jah: Yeah, I mean, I appreciate for all the kind words and it's humbling to know that anything that I might have worked on could inspire another brother or sister to pursue, or move closer [00:35:00] to their truth. . Those words come I, there is a a great scholar who passed away maybe 20 years ago.

Javid Jah: His name is Titus Berkhart . He was Swiss French. But he became a disciple of a, an unleashing, a Moroccan master in the 20th century. And he was a Christian and then he converted to Islam and then he studied, I IRB closely, and then he wrote several books on the traditional sacred arts which include in essence geometry, music astronomy and alchemy.

Javid Jah: And I read him extensively. I really love the way he, because he does a lot of overlap. He was very well versed in the Viant and so M very. Very deeply understands Buddhist and doist Confucian design architecture. So he was an artist who was studying world architecture's designs and doing comparative analysis through the lens of Dao, awful offensively.

Javid Jah: He was a Sufi disciple. And [00:36:00] I gravitate to him because he speaks a lot of this quality of transcendence, the quality of being inside of something and also beyond something. So, and that the sacred arts do that, the sacred arts crystallize a concept, let's say we in Islam, we talk about Towheed, the lot a oneness So if you look at a star any kind of star seven points, eight points, 12 points, the star pattern radiates from a center. Cool. And mesmerizes, it, it radiates and creates all these other shapes, but all those forms lead back to the center. So this crystallization of a form, meaning taking that concept of oneness and putting it into a material that is static as an object, whether it's on a surface or a spatial object that crystallizing of the form becomes a reminder or a thicker of how unity simultaneously expresses [00:37:00] multiplicity that's happening.

Javid Jah: Cuz the artist is somehow cultivating, going through a transformation of their own as they are taking a principle that they believe in and passing it through to the art they're making. So now a static object, all of a sudden can draw you closer to the divine via contemplation. As much as looking at a tree or a flower or a waterfall or any of these wonderful naturally created objects that have infinite majesty and beauty.

Javid Jah: And so to me, that's where my art gravitated toward is like this view of traditional art, this view of like crystallizing forms that are reminders of this balance between unity and multiplicity. But I'm paring that with my contemp. I'm not, I'm very much interested in revisiting that with what I got going on right now.

Javid Jah: Like I'm really into I'm really into, just like everyone else. I, [00:38:00] you have flooded with what's constantly happening, whether it's dine or ArcHa daily or something on Insta or whatever you're seeing what people are innovating with. So I'm. I'm also, I'm not very different. I'm really interested in what's happening right now.

Javid Jah: Whether it be CNC technologies or laser cutting 3d printing. And I'm just saying, okay what happens if I use these tools and try them with some of these ideas, what happens? Can we take this and re remake it? And it's not just in a sense of like I think it could be done very super fluidly.

Javid Jah: Like it's easy to trace a star pattern and laser cut it, put it on someone's wall, take a nice shot, put it on Instagram. Do seven of them, have 10,000 followers. I'm not saying that's easy, but I've seen it happen. I'm not saying it in that sense, because that exists. I'm saying it in the sense of when you are playing with what you have right now, but you are thinking of something that has an eternal principle, like Tahi does not something that's gonna change tomorrow.

Javid Jah: There could be somebody talking about it differently, but [00:39:00] the concept of it, if anyone has to think about what the absolute means like some, if anyone has to contemplate allow, what does that mean while they're doing what they're doing in whatever way that they're doing, it's going to, it's gonna be embedded in what they make, it's gonna surface in it.

Javid Jah: It's just if you listen to a song in the morning for five minutes, at 5:00 PM, it might still be in your head. If you're centering yourself every morning on what the absolute is, and then you go out and you make whatever you make, I guarantee you it's gonna boomerang back into what you do. And that's all I'm saying, 

Raad Seraj: Because to your point, like when you do that or you interact with an object that material, the act of creation actually transforms yourself, right? You are the artist while being the creator is also being created. 

Javid Jah: That and you just defined alchemy like that is Al Camia. Is that it's the inner transformation that occurs as a result of an outer practice. 

Raad Seraj: That's amazing. 

Javid Jah: No, I think that's essentially how I [00:40:00] boil down my practice. I think there's many steps along the way of activities I participated. Like I participated in graffiti. I'm sure there's some graffiti artists that are like, you didn't participate enough you didn't do enough in this.

Javid Jah: You didn't pay your dues. And that same thing with murals. I participated in murals, but I didn't do a mega 30 story, massive international. I participated in this, I built homes for people, but I didn't build like no shim, Sutcliff palace in Rosedale, you know, like I, I participated in different activities to the extent that it was interesting and I was learning, but I never wanted to be.

Javid Jah: Defined or held by one practice because there were superfluous practices and you learn it and grow from it. I never wanted to, I'm just this thing. It doesn't matter. Who are you with this label? You can have all the labels you want, you die the same way with what label, which is whether or not you were a good person or you, a compassionate person.

Javid Jah: Did you know, nobody's like, I think that's something that that's how I define [00:41:00] innovation, speak fluid. 

Raad Seraj: And in a definition that's art always moves. Right? And I think going to con conversation about identities, I understand where you're like, okay, I gotta do 10,000 hours or something to become an expert.

Raad Seraj: I get that at the same time, you can do many things. And that is your identity, which is you're doing things and you're transforming and you're growing in some way. but yeah not to be so rigid and hold onto some sort of idea of who you think you are. 

Javid Jah: Yeah. Because I think there's things like FOMO is that so many people say fear of missing out.

Javid Jah: I think there's things like feelings of notoriety and how much money in your bank. And those are real things to think about. If you wanted a recognizable style, you might have to stick to an identity from like any perspective and some people make a great table and then they want to make 5 million tables because everyone wants those tables.

Javid Jah: , that's how the [00:42:00] economics is defined. If you do something well, specialize it it's not defined in different terms. And so you might not look outside of those terms or you might be satisfied with that. And. That's everyone else's own choice. I'm not ever trying to say, what is the ultimate artist or what you must do as an artist or anything, because I don't even know.

Javid Jah: I, it's just that my path is one of that that the principle is eternal and, but the practices evolve. Mm.

Raad Seraj: It, I think that's so important being an artist, because it's not so much what you made it's about how it made people feel. And so in that way, it's consistent the object of contemplation, whether it's the Kaba or whether it's a sculpture, it's the same thing. Yeah. What feeling is it eliciting? We are running out of time, so I want to be sure that we would recover this part. I could literally chat with you for hours, but I wanna touch, I wanna be sure to touch on this part because it's not very often that I hear of other Muslims.

Raad Seraj: Who've, who've experienced particular psyched. Alterative of consciousness through these medicines, you [00:43:00] have experienced iowaska. I'm very curious about how that came to be. How did you stumbled into the world? What made you curious? What was that experience like? 

Javid Jah: Yeah, I mean, I to me is a medicine from an indigenous community that is super intimate with the forces of nature and that we as people and me as a person who is not as intimate with I, I had been going to Columbia down south to paint for a number of years, probably five times the last seven years or something.

Javid Jah: I love going down there. I have a lot of friends and family. It just so happened that one time while I was down there a friend of mine knew a Tata, which is somebody who conducts the ceremony. And I met the Tata I face to face. I just saw them and I felt their light. And so that person's personal invitation [00:44:00] compelled me to want to spend time with them.

Javid Jah: And this, so they, I attended a ceremony. It was on a beach, there was a fire in the center. It was a circle of individuals who I didn't know. And yeah, and I experienced IA and I had a profound respect and was just going in with no expectations and an empty stomach and I was really. was really not.

Javid Jah: All I felt or understood from it was a reinforcement of what I already what I had already come to terms to, in terms of my alignment and life purpose. There, there is, there are certain like imaginative and bodily like experiences that come with the medicine. But the, like the essential feeling that I got from it was one of our interconnectedness, [00:45:00] and I don't think that is maybe too profound for people.

Javid Jah: I think that anyone who's aware or discusses it, they, that, that's like the baseline of DMT users probably. So I don't know if I have anything to. Contribute to that, except to say that it's a medicine that I believe comes to you when you need it. Not something that you need to search out to find a solution or to to have another exciting adventure.

Raad Seraj: Well, let me piggyback on that then. What did you need at that point of your life that I have found you?

Javid Jah: I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what I needed. I just felt that way about it. It just suggested it to me, that Aya finds you. Because I come across some people that, that really want to do Aya and they can't find the right situation or something doesn't work out or I'm sure there's people are just like, listen, I'm paying for this. I'm getting on this trip. I book this, I'm doing this. Or you could do it here in Toronto or whatever. I'm sure what I'm saying won't resonate [00:46:00] with everyone, but I actually believe that it's a spiritual medicine. And it's been used by a community who understands it for a very long time.

Javid Jah: And now it's being commercialized for lack of a better word. And it's treated like other drugs. I think that could be true for lots of other drugs. A great example is cocaine. We visited the Koge people in the Sierra Nevada, and the Coca leaf and the poporo, which is where they scraped inside of the seed, creates a chemical reaction that is akin to the sensation of cocaine, but it's in a completely different context. It's a context of remembrance of the divine of oneness of the physical and spiritual universe. So the implications or the connection to the same chemical reaction. It's like alchemy chemistry, one has the ingredient of the spirit and the other is the ingredient of profit.

Javid Jah: It's so interesting. Like you talk about Coca. The Coca leaf has, I think around [00:47:00] 118 or 120 different vitamins cocaine. That isolate is 1% by weight of the Coca leave. And yet we've I defined the entire plant by its commoditized, effect , Coca leaves are cocaine. We bomb the shit out of countries by, because the DEA.

Javid Jah: And the war on drugs deemed anybody who grows cocaine Coca leaves, regardless of the indigenous use cultural use to be that thing, it's really unfortunate. And I agree with you. I think you can commoditize something, but at least with psychology and Ika and DMT and even tobacco and cannabis, these are all, sacraments you remove the cultural context from it.

Javid Jah: They will become commodities and that's when they become profitable. 

Javid Jah: Exactly. Yeah. Tobacco is such a great example. We wouldn't enter into walk in a forest in Columbia without a tobacco smudging and eating [00:48:00] of Coca leaves. He just, he wouldn't do that. I think it became. At first, I remember the first few times being like, wow, that's deep that we're doing this. Then it becomes a normal thing. Or even meeting people and exchanging leaves with them. Like having a pouch where you held leaves. And every time you meet someone, you gotta exchange. This is pre COVID, that this whole attitude of it's just unfortunate, but at the same time, it doesn't, therefore to me, it doesn't therefore mean that the truth is any harder to access. it's still there. It's just you have to be willing to wanna peel the layers away. 

Raad Seraj: I agree. And while I am cautious, I am hopeful. Cuz I think people are deeply craving remembrance and reverence, like you were saying, we've lost these other sort of connections to anything that is not in our bodies.

Raad Seraj: That is something above us. And these medicines remind us that it's possible. But it's not about the, yeah, it's not about the tool or the medicine itself. It's about the community and the culture and the [00:49:00] reverence around it. I wanna end with one last question, which is, you said I, Oscar reminded you of things or just reminded of things that you already knew coming back to Java Ja today and the artist, the philosopher, and all the other things that you identify as, what would you say to, let's say other Muslims self-identified or not culturally or religiously Muslim, whatever.

Raad Seraj: What would you say to them in terms of what it Islam is or can be, or should be in the context of Ayahuasca, or just general to your point about like oneness, wholeness about submit, submitting yourself to the unknown or to exploration, anything like that. 

Javid Jah: I think it's a good sign. If you're que, if you're questioning why to submit I think it's a good sign if you're skeptical. There's there's a wonderful chart by Ida IRB that goes through the 28 stages of [00:50:00] existence and it aligns each stage of existence with a phase of a moon and a number, a letter from the Arabic alphabet.

Javid Jah: And when you get through all the stages, you start a new moon, you get the full moon. When you get to the last stage is a human, but the stage. The human stage is actually one before the last stage. And the last stage is actually the degrees themselves.

Javid Jah: So now we're talking about a hierarchy order of creation and the last stage itself is the hierarchy, not the thing that's at the last stage. What that implies is that knowledge is of higher order than anything in the order itself. Knowledge of the order is the most important thing. And I just would say to anybody who wants to be on Serato Quin, or wants to understand what that means [00:51:00] is that only a hundred years ago, would you have to have studied these type of sciences before studying the meaning of the Quran?

Javid Jah: Not necessarily Ibn Arabi. Many of the other associated sciences from astronomy to Arabic literature and literacy, like how the language functions to arithmetic geometry. So you can't just go straight to the source and expect it to open up clearly to you. What you can do is start with the position of, I don't know anything like La Ilaha Ilallah, I don't, there is none, but one, you could start with that affirmation and then go from there and say okay I want to know, I want to know.

Javid Jah: And so I think skepticism is a great position and that's why the LA of LA. In it's visual of a, kind of an X with a bottom line. And it's it's meaning as, from no in, you'll see, especially in Turkey the whirling dervishes they'll stand there and they'll go like this.

Javid Jah: [00:52:00] To mimic the X of that, because that is the position at this hierarchy at the beginning of recognition of, I don't know. 

Raad Seraj: Oh, crazy. I had no idea. 

Javid Jah: There's is a great Netflix show called Yunus Emre. And the first stage of the submission is I don't know. Somebody ask you a question. I don't know. It's okay. Not to know you could be the scholar of the greatest degrees of PhDs and still not know the truth or not know what the reality is, what is a Huck or know it and not be able to express it. And that's totally okay. 

Raad Seraj: Whew, that, that kind of blew my mind. I recently heard a quote, a Confucius quote, which says that every man has two lives. The second one starts when he realizes he only has one. 

Javid Jah: Yeah. Die twice is a, you gotta die twice. It's a great quote. 

Javid Jah: [00:53:00] Javid, this was like I said, I could talk to you for hours. This is so inspirational. I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. 

Javid Jah: Thank you so much for the opportunity to share stories and thoughts. And hopefully I did not offend anyone or was disrespectful about anyone or I hope I'm not ticking as somebody who's preaching or trying to impose or anything. I'm totally not. That's not my cup of tea. I'm merely trying to express stories that I happened to come across. 

Raad Seraj: Not at all. I think if anything, I, it was really inspirational because you talk about ultimately not knowing, but finding your way to a multi variant, answer... many different possibilities. And I think that is ultimately, the quest for any truth, really. So I deeply appreciate you. Again, you're an inspiration for me and thanks again for joining us. Thank you, brother. 

Raad Seraj: This podcast was brought to life with the help of Carolyn Tripp on art and design, Misha Ras on sound design, and Wilson [00:54:00] Lin on editing. Thanks so much for listening to minority trip report. I'm your host Raad Seraj.