[00:00:00] Welcome to Minority Trip Report. MTR is a podcast spotlighting stories of personal transformation and underrepresented leaders in mental health, psychedelics, and consciousness. I'm your host, Raj Suraj. If you're learning from or enjoying Minority Trip Report, please subscribe to MTR on YouTube at Minority Trip Report, and follow us on Instagram at Minority Trip.

[00:00:18] Thank you and enjoy the episode. 

[00:00:20] Raad Seraj: Today, my guest is Stephanie Wang, who is the founder and CEO of KA! Empathogenics, who has the mission to restore full spectrum aliveness for all beings. KA! Offers 100 percent plant based empathogenic supplements featuring Kanna, a heart opening succulent from South Africa that is clinically proven to activate an immediate sense of ground energy, helping people feel more alive, capable and connected as they navigate everyday stress. Previously, Stephanie was the president of the Alchemist Kitchen and director of Revolver, a conscious lifestyle company in New York, as well as a documentary and narrative film producer. A native Hong Konger, Stephanie began her career in corporate finance on Wall Street and was the number one ranked equity analyst in the retail sector with HSBC Securities Hong Kong.

[00:01:00] Raad Seraj: Stephanie, welcome. Thanks for joining us.

[00:01:01] Stephanie Wang: Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here. Thanks, Rad, for having me. 

[00:01:04] Raad Seraj: You have a had very varied career so there's lots to dig into. But where I want to start first is what is Kanna? Now I might've heard about Kanna here and there, but I always confused it with Kava. So I think there's something to talk about there. My partner and I recently tried Kanna. Thanks for sending those the samples. And I found it really interesting when you the analogy you drew was with MDMA. There was this heart of opening experience. Now I think my partner got the dosage wrong, so we'll have to work on that. But let's start there. What is Kanna? 

[00:01:35] Stephanie Wang: Kanna is a succulent plant from South Africa, and it's been used by the Indigenous there, the Khoi Khoi and the San people traditionally, I mean, since, for thousands of years, really. It has always been central to their society medicinally. And also they use it for celebration when they go into trans dancing for divination on higher doses when they want to speak with their ancestors or connect with the divine. It's also, they also take it or they used to take it when they went on multi day hunts again for its sort of calming and sedative qualities. For stress, but also a combined effect, which is really unusual where they also feel a grounded energy as well, a sense of that. And so, Kanna was used by them to enhance stamina and endurance. And while while they went on multi day hunts, which is, Really interesting. Kanna also has this ability to suppress hunger and thirst and regulate that. So it's great again for helping the body, support the body and the mind going through any kind of stressful situation, be it physical or mental. And I mean, this plant is, is excuse me, this plant grows in the drier regions of the Cape provinces in Southern Africa, especially, in the crew desert, and it also grows in

[00:02:58] Stephanie Wang: Namibia. And it's a plant that's, yeah, it's a plant that has like beautiful flowering white, yellow, or pink flowers. And it's a succulent, like I, like I said, it likes to grow in dry, dry areas, but also likes to always grow in pairs or together with other plants.

[00:03:15] Stephanie Wang: With another plant. So it's interesting. The only reason the reason I'm also bringing the ecology up is because oftentimes if you understand a plant and how it grows, it gives you actually a lot of information as to how you can build a relationship with it and what it might be great for. In terms of your health, in terms of helping you with, whatever ailments you might have.

[00:03:36] Stephanie Wang: And in this case for example, kind of grows in desert, excuse me, desert regions and dry areas. And that also gives you a sense of how

[00:03:47] Stephanie Wang: resilient it is. And when it's actually dying, It actually becomes more and more potent medicinally that also tells you something. So it's in a way, not surprising that Kanna is very helpful for supporting stress and anxiety and also helps, bring more calm and into your life. So this particular plant has many, many different And that also makes it really unique. I mentioned some of the uses of how the indigenous would take it. So they would take it to celebrate because it's a euphoriant as well. It helps brings you, gives you that uplift. It gives you a sense of grounded energy while it's also calming brain activity.

[00:04:31] Stephanie Wang: So you're chill, but you're, in a great mood and that's because it acts as a serotonin reuptake inhibitor as well as a serotonin releasing agent. So because of the way it activates a certain protein called VMAT2, which helps, which is a protein that helps transport neurotransmitters out of cells. That way it actually have helps bring more serotonin to the body and it's also serotonin reuptake inhibitor. So it's both. And it also activates. Many other receptors, as I mentioned, for example, receptors for GABA, for opioids, for cholecystokinin, for melatonin. So what that means also is that if you take it regularly, it also helps promote, great sleep quality because of how it activates receptors for melatonin. So, It's, how it for example, activates the receptors for closest decline in means that it helps prevent gut inflammation and also helps regulate hedonic cravings. So hedonic cravings are essentially any kind of excessive craving where it's not like your body needs the food, but you cannot help it like eat.

[00:05:42] Stephanie Wang: So it's kind of like when we reach for that one potato chip. But we end up eating. That's kind of, that's excessive hedonic craving. Again, because of how Kanna's alkaloids work, it really helps to actually regulate these cravings. And so it's, it kind of does a thing where it resets your, your brain a little bit.

[00:06:04] Raad Seraj: It's interesting. You said that it's used for hunting and divination. The divination part makes sense because you drew a parallel to MDMA as well. And with MDMA, sometimes I think this is a conversation we had before is that it's easy to feel very exuberant and ecstatic as you almost become overwhelmed by the experience.

[00:06:21] Raad Seraj: So, and sometimes it tends to exaggerate what you might feel, right? So case in point, Everything's lovey dovey cuddle puddle. And then next day you're like, well, I can't imagine hanging with this person again So it's with with Kanna. It feels a lot more grounded and and pragmatic for the lack of a better word And it's interesting because you know using something for both that is Relaxing calming but also for hunting it feels like it still keeps the senses sharp So you're very present in the conversations or the moments while also Sedating you a little bit, right?

[00:06:53] Raad Seraj: Mm hmm

[00:06:54] Stephanie Wang: Yes, absolutely. And thanks for bringing that up because another huge aspect of Kanna is it improves cognitive function, memory, focus, problem solving ability. And it's, it's it's also important to really make a decision. Distinction between Kanna and MDMA. Cause I know that's a comparison that is made a lot.

[00:07:15] Stephanie Wang: There's meme out there, that Kanna is nature's MDMA. So the, in terms of how they're similar, they are both empathogenic in, in, in the sense that it, they, they both open your heart. The way MDMA is it's, it's a kind of like a extreme, A version of that heart opening versus versus Connor. So just so people don't, don't don't take Connor and expect that it's going to be like MDMA. It's not. But I also want to emphasize some of the differences because they have important health health indications. So MDMA is As many know, you really, it's not advisable to take it continuously regularly because it will damage your, your nervous system.

[00:07:56] Stephanie Wang: And Kanna is actually very neuroprotective. And it's actually completely the opposite. And I mentioned earlier how it works on multiple receptors. It's also in, so for example, with Kanna, if you take it, even if it's on a really high dose, there is

[00:08:12] Stephanie Wang: no crash. very much. And part of, one of the reasons is because it works on so many different receptors. And it's also adaptogenic, which again is super unusual for something that's, I guess, psychoactive and has all these other benefits. So it means, being adaptogenic means that there's no toxicity and you actually can take it every day. And that's extremely, extremely different from what MDMA is like.

[00:08:36] Stephanie Wang: And I'm not taking away what MDMA can do for people because MDMA is. Therapy is, and treatment is, really works for, for a lot of people especially with people with trauma. But I just want to make that distinction because, if you think they're the same or very similar, they absolutely are not.

[00:08:55] Stephanie Wang: So, and the great thing about Kanna is that it's much safer in that sense because MDMA also has a lot of, it can have a lot of negative and dangerous side effects. And they're awesome. Including addiction, whereas Kanna also is non addictive and, it's interesting because Kanna is actually used to treat addiction in Southern Africa, traditionally especially for alcohol abuse. And in fact, there is an Afrikaans Saying or an Afrikaans name for Kanna called Onse Troi Tronk, which means our dry drink. So it's in lieu of alcohol, you take

[00:09:31] Stephanie Wang: Kanna to celebrate time. And the empathic, I mean, one thing, I know we mentioned the whole lovey dovey thing, but that empathogenic aspect is, is also bears. Yeah. Reiterating, because what it's doing when we're saying that it's hard opening is it really eases social connection. It eases, eases, excuse me, it eases connecting with yourself and also with others. So whether you're finding and discovering and and unveiling feelings that maybe you've pushed down in a way and not wanted to, Experience or feel, it actually brings all those feelings up. So that's why we always say, at Codds, like feel the feels, feel yourself. What does that mean? Most of us are just like in our heads, we're just like, Oh my God, got to keep, got to keep working, got to keep pushing. And we don't ourselves time that space and that space to really be, be with ourselves. And I think one of the big gifts of Kanna is doing that. It's actually opening up space for us to. Be with ourselves and also just to process all those feelings that have that, need to come out. Right. And, and another beautiful thing is that it helps us connect with another person, but we, it's, it's really hard to connect with another when you're not even connected to yourself. Right. Cause you're just, you're, you're not even here. There's no press. So Kanna is beautiful that way. Cause it really brings you into presence through the heart. And I like to think of it, from a, from a shamanic standpoint, Kanna is considered heart medicine, which means it brings you into consciousness through the heart. So it doesn't take you out of the body. Whereas psilocybin and for example, ayahuasca are amazing psychedelics but the way they, they work with you in consciousness is they're considered spirit medicine. They take you out of the body. So you're up, you're doing, you're doing that dance up there. Still having amazing insights, but it works very differently. For me, I would say. I love Kanna so much. Not that I don't enjoy the other psychedelics. And again, in case people are wondering, Kanna is not psychedelic. It's psychoactive, but not psychedelic, meaning there are no visuals. There is no hallucinations. You don't lose track of space and time. It's sober.

[00:11:45] Stephanie Wang: You can take it easy. When you go to work, you can take it on a daily basis. And I do it, I take Kanna, before I start the day, because it just helps ground me and keeps me even keeled. So I don't get overwhelmed. I'm not as stressed out. And it actually helps definitely support my cognitive function.

[00:12:04] Stephanie Wang: It supports me in my executive function, especially where I just, I'm sharper for

[00:12:10] Raad Seraj: So it's, it's psychoactive in the same way that coffee is psychoactive, not to say they have the same effect, but they have, they're psychoactive without being psychedelic, right? So they're state altering in that way. 

[00:12:21] Stephanie Wang: Exactly.

[00:12:21] Raad Seraj: from I, I was, again, I was very ignorant and confused Kanna and Kaba very often until I met you and it educated me what Kanna is.

[00:12:29] Raad Seraj: Tell me a little bit about how Kanna and Kaba are different.

[00:12:32] Stephanie Wang: Sure. Absolutely. I, but before I even go there, right, there was one, another important point I didn't mention earlier about the difference between MDMA and condom. So MDMA also has amphetamines. Right. So it's a, it's a very different kind of does not have that. So, and then just to, just to be clear, MDMA has much stronger effect.

[00:12:51] Stephanie Wang: It's going to be a much more to say it's a bigger experience if you're looking for that, like mega heart opening, but that's not to say that Connor will give you something else. It's a very subtle plant and it works that way. In a very powerful way, especially over time, if you micro dose it, it's incredible. So in terms of Kava Kava Kava Kava is also beautiful plant that's from the Pacific Islands originally, right? And it's also a sedative. It gives people a feeling of relaxation, a little bit of euphoria. And it's also been used in ceremony and been used by humans for, hundreds of years at least. Kava Kava is a natural MAOI. And it's different in the sense, I think the biggest difference is in terms of how it's processed in the liver and cover cover again is one of those plants that, you know, and there's so many cover bars, you can go and grab a cover drink at the thing to be careful of is just, again, not to take it regularly because it will raise your liver enzymes and it will, with long term use, it can cause damage to your liver.

[00:13:57] Stephanie Wang: So that's the one thing that is important to, to look out for. And also, kava, kava, kava tends to also have, it's a sedation, it's a sedative and it doesn't have that cognitive sharpening at all. Like. Effect unlike Kanna, which does, and it's, it's euphoric, but I would not call cover cover, a heart opener.

[00:14:21] Stephanie Wang: It's again, it works differently in the body. But both of them definitely give help you get into a more relaxed state. Whereas I would say cover cover is definitely more set, more

[00:14:31] Raad Seraj: interesting. They do have the one thing in common, which is they're both unscheduled substances. Now, this is really interesting because you're building a company around an unscheduled substance, which is Kanna. Tell me a little bit about the mechanics. Of that are like, what is, how do you build a company around a substance that is unscheduled and uncertain regulatory environment?

[00:14:53] Raad Seraj: That is not to say it is just because it is not legal, doesn't make it illegal. You know what I mean? So I'm curious, how did you navigate that and what are the mechanics and the complexities regulatory wise and also building a company around it?

[00:15:06] Stephanie Wang: Yeah. I mean, I think I, I've also picked Kanna early on because it's legal in, in virtually all of the States in the U S at least, except for one, which is Louisiana. It is legal everywhere that I know

[00:15:19] Stephanie Wang: internationally as well as in the U S and Canada. The one thing is there's, there's Louisiana is the, is the only

[00:15:27] Stephanie Wang: state that does not, that does prohibit the sale of, of Kanna, but it's also, to give you a little bit of sense of, of what that means. Louisiana also does not allow the sale of Damiana

[00:15:39] Stephanie Wang: or Blue Lotus. So it's just, I think you can maybe tell a little bit, maybe anything that is slightly expansive in consciousness. Tends to get, 

[00:15:50] Raad Seraj: It's of the religious 

[00:15:51] Stephanie Wang: I don't know, again, I should, 

[00:15:52] Raad Seraj: Yeah.

[00:15:55] Stephanie Wang: And I don't want to get your, but it's all, it's interesting to note that. So, that was one of the big reasons because it is legal and it's, it's super interesting. It's psychoactive has all of these big, amazing benefits. And I also have been working personally with Kanna for at least. 13, excuse me, excuse me, at least 11 years at this point. And it was a big part of my own healing.

[00:16:20] Stephanie Wang: So that's another reason why I chose that. I think in terms of navigating the, the, let's say the FDA and, the other aspects. Thank goodness that Kanna is not scheduled. There are also other companies out there that, that came before us that have taken or have been deriving products from Kanna and kind of creating their own Kanna brand. And and they actually went through and did a ton of studies. That are out there publicly. So they actually got, I believe they had, what what is it called? It's basically not going through the whole FDA process. 

[00:17:04] Raad Seraj: It's like voluntary, what can you say? You're being transparent, volunteer, you're volunteering more information, something like that. Okay. So you get the point that it would, they, they're able to self certify for the lack of a better word in some way, and they can then market or sell these products.

[00:17:19] Raad Seraj: It's all right.

[00:17:20] Stephanie Wang: Correct. I mean, it just gives them much more credibility. And there's a lot, again, a lot of studies that have been, that, that were done that actually show the efficacy of

[00:17:31] Raad Seraj: So with that said, was it, is it challenging building a company because of, the fact that it's unscheduled or is it just like the complexities are really with building a CPG company, just like anywhere else?

[00:17:45] Stephanie Wang: The complexities are related really more, More with the fact that it's a

[00:17:50] Stephanie Wang: CPG company, I would say that there definitely is an aspect, but I think in our case, that is really different because of the way kind of kind of just was not

[00:17:59] Stephanie Wang: is not scheduled legal. And there are also companies who have self certified grass.

[00:18:04] Stephanie Wang: So, grass is generally. Generally recognized as safe is what it represents. And there are companies that actually can do self certification to, to show that, the ground is safe. And like, like I said Zembran actually is the company that did that. And so, it's a lot,

[00:18:21] Stephanie Wang: they've really paved the road for a lot of us, later on to, to, who are, who are actually manufacturing or

[00:18:28] Stephanie Wang: producing 

[00:18:29] Raad Seraj: Mm hmm. Mm 

[00:18:30] Stephanie Wang: these products to make it a lot easier in a way.

[00:18:33] Stephanie Wang: There's a little bit, you never know with the FDA, right. But it just gives us I would say it makes it less risky for us and the rest of it. Thinking about how we've been, how we've launched and how we've grown in the last, year and eight months, has been really basing, basing everything on, on us as a CPG company. But I think. I think what the interesting area was was a little where we struggled a little bit with earlier on is exactly that question. Like, are we a CPG company or are we a psychedelic company? But we're not psychedelic. But then we're so related to the psychedelic culture. How does that work? And, I think it was actually one of the reviewers from Snackshot, who's amazing, they, they review, amazing publication really spots the trends and they actually spotted us and called us a psychedelic adjacent company, which we are. So that would, that was like, actually very helpful to think of it. of us as psychedelic adjacent. So culturally, we still belong in many ways to the psychedelic culture. But really we're for everyone for simply because, we're psychoactive, not psychedelic, and we're also legal. And, but it's, it's, it's this beautiful, exciting moment where you have. Plant medicines that, that are out there, there are not psychedelic that are legal that are now being incorporated into someone's daily

[00:20:02] Stephanie Wang: health routine. Right. I mean, that shrooms and I'm not talking about psilocybin, I'm talking about just

[00:20:07] Raad Seraj: Functional mushrooms. 

[00:20:08] Stephanie Wang: know, mushroom, mushroom. 

[00:20:09] Raad Seraj: Yeah.

[00:20:09] Stephanie Wang: Exactly adapted and such. So, you see that trend definitely, booming. And I think part of that is also, and I love, I love the functional mushroom companies out there, cause it's also,

[00:20:23] Stephanie Wang: they're also preparing for the day where, or psilocybin or some other, other psychoactive mushrooms will,

[00:20:28] Stephanie Wang: will become 

[00:20:29] Raad Seraj: I think it's really interesting and fascinating, and we're going to touch more on this in the last part of the interview, which is building this brand new brand category, right? Like psychedelic adjacent. What the hell does that even mean, right? When we talk about psychoactive. What does that mean?

[00:20:43] Raad Seraj: There's a lot of awareness building and community building that's involved here, and I think that's both the opportunity and the challenge, of course, right? But I, before we talk about that, I want to pivot a little bit to to About you, personally. Now, your bio says that you were at one point the number one equity analyst in the retail sector for HSBC in Hong Kong.

[00:21:05] Raad Seraj: You were also a filmmaker at one point, and a producer. I'm curious, how does one go from filmmaking to being an analyst at a pretty well known firm. And, as I was joking, being an equity analyst or the number one equity analyst is just a proxy for how stressful life can be. Tell me a little bit about that world and that part of your life, that time in your life.

[00:21:27] Raad Seraj: What was that like? And how did you get into that? How did you get out of it? If you got out of it, I don't know. Like, was it a smooth transition? Was it a more abrupt thing? What was it like? What Hahahaha.

[00:21:37] Stephanie Wang: Wow. That was like many lifetimes ago, I went, I went to university. I went to Wharton, I, study business. It was the thing to do, especially then, especially with the kind of background. That I grew up in. I grew up in Hong Kong and had very conservative parents and they're basically like,

[00:21:55] Stephanie Wang: be a doctor or lawyer or accountant to go into business, but just don't, please don't do anything impractical.

[00:22:00] Stephanie Wang: Thank you very much. So, I was definitely. Yeah, turning towards finance as a career choice. And, I started off in, on wall street as a, in corporate finance and which was, I mean, I, I, I was working like 120 hours a day. A week, at least it was insane. And then later on, I moved over to being an equity analyst, which was a little bit better, but the stress was definitely still there. And, was it, was it easy to leave that business? I think I got to a point where I realized I was making great money. I. Was very successful in what I was doing, but I was just, I felt

[00:22:38] Stephanie Wang: like an empty shell, to be perfectly honest. And I think that I couldn't recognize at that time, what I really, who I really was and what I really wanted, because I was under, I think a lot of programming influence from my family.

[00:22:53] Stephanie Wang: And it didn't also be in Hong Kong. Hong Kong is a very, material focused place or was then at least right. And so, I, and I didn't know, cause I wasn't exposed to the art so much. I wasn't exposed to any of this other stuff. And it got to a point where I was so depressed essentially.

[00:23:09] Stephanie Wang: And I couldn't understand, I mean, I couldn't understand why, because every, from every other angle, I looked like a very successful.

[00:23:17] Stephanie Wang: Person, right? And this is really, I had a breakdown to be perfectly honest during that time. And I, I had to really look deep and had a dark night of the soul. And that really started my passion for exploring consciousness. Right. It started from my own pain of not just like wanting to understand, like, why is it that, that I'm, in this, in this whole, even though ostensibly, it looks like I should be perfectly happy. I should be the happiest person, on the planet, but I'm not. And so it, it really started a long self discovery and healing process. And through a lot of that is how I got in touch with a lot of spirituality, a lot of different modalities of healing. And exploring what it means to be a human being. And I also accompanied what accompanied that stress that I was under really not being

[00:24:06] Stephanie Wang: the person that I truly was plus adding all those hours and, being under a very stressful work environment was that my health was also in decline and I had a lot of health issues.

[00:24:16] Stephanie Wang: So all of those reasons. And, and just basically all of those ailments drove me to basically leave the industry. I had to stop. I just had to, I could not go on. Number one for my health and number two for my own sanity. And I, I needed something for my soul. I was very, very hungry. But I didn't know yet at that time what I was hungry for. So then it was like years of, experimenting and learning and healing to finally get to, to the point where I was doing something that was more, that was, I would say, more positive. Closer to my heart. So going to film was the first step of exploring that. What does it mean?

[00:24:58] Stephanie Wang: I, I mean, I went into film both as a producer, as an actor, as all, just all aspects of, of what that meant which was extremely helpful actually, and it helped me delve into Meaning making. What is truth? What is what is meaningful to me? How do I express that? Can I express that? Right? And that's a whole the arts are amazing that way. Because it really gets you out of the framework of the corporate mindset. And I had to detox from that corporate mindset for a good, oh my God, a good five years, at least. For me to get out of the, to get out of the headspace of how I grew up and, and kind of deprogram myself. And then throughout really all the way up to today has been a beautiful consciousness expanding journey for which I'm deeply grateful. And a big aspect of that was actually plant medicine. 

[00:25:53] Raad Seraj: hmm. Let me ask you this. I find places like finance and perhaps even politics, and I have lots of friends in this world. I'm deeply embedded in the world of VC and technology and things like that. But finance in particular seems like, and in some ways finance is the leading indicator for good and bad of where the world is gonna go, right?

[00:26:13] Raad Seraj: And what's gonna happen, right? Some would say the stock market is the consciousness of the global consciousness, again, for good and bad. You can sense the global anxiety and ambitions and aspirations and the politics of it all just by looking at the ticker of a couple of stocks, right?

[00:26:28] Raad Seraj: And commodities. Why do you think finance is ripe for spiritual disruption? What about it makes it so pernicious but also susceptible? And I would, and I want to kind of, I want you to answer this from the perspective of like, you, Stephanie, now, speaking to the Stephanie, At that time, and I, and I'll just end by and this by saying that I think for a lot of people, I feel in those worlds, it's hard to trust yourself when you're having that sort of breakdown and go like, oh my God.

[00:26:59] Raad Seraj: Maybe it's, I'm on the wrong path. Hey, why don't I just get another drink? Why don't I go out again? Why don't I go party again? Maybe I'll feel better. 'cause that's what everybody around you is gonna tell you. Mm-Hmm.

[00:27:10] Stephanie Wang: Right. Wow. That is a very powerful and challenging question. I'm going to try and tackle that. So let's say, let's, let's go back if if I was myself back at that moment where I was at the juncture of like, Oh my God, I'm totally unhappy. And I, I instead went the other way and I said, look, I'm gonna. I'm just going to ignore this because maybe I just, I'm not making enough money. Maybe I, maybe I should just get, whatever, buy some, whatever it is that will, that will retail therapy, whatever it is that I think would make me happy that's outside of myself. Right. Cause most people who are, let's say. Not who don't have a spiritual practice or maybe don't really have that ability to be in touch with, their internal landscape will tend to look outside of themselves. Right. So, okay. What's out there. And our society is also designed in a way for you, for us to be consumer consumerist driven.

[00:28:02] Stephanie Wang: Right. So we're always looking out to buy whatever the next thing that could make us happy, because it says, Oh, buy this and you'll feel great. So, I, I think that that, even if people went down that road, let's say something where you're talking about someone in finance, I think it's a very short road, you'll realize, Oh my God, I'm just digging myself in a deeper hole.

[00:28:19] Stephanie Wang: I may, I may drink, have a few more drinks, but I just feel much worse after, and my liver is, is gonna, not be so great at the end of this. And, I think what, why the body is so wonderful also is because it never lies. So usually I always find the point where people kind of reach consciousness is even if they're not like at all, like, evolve consciously or anything like that is through the body because it's, it's something that And we all of us have that if we start to feel sick in any area, right, physically, that is a very obvious wake up call. And if we ignore that, that tends to get louder and louder. So you're a little, stomach ache because you're so stressed. To, you're stressed all the time will become an ulcer that ulcer. If you're, if it's untreated, you're just drinking more. Well, guess what? It might burst. I mean, it'll, it'll keep kind of compounding until it'll that, that knock on your door will become louder and louder until you absolutely have to listen to it, right? Maybe you have, God forbid, I don't know, like a heart attack, or, or a stroke or something, and again, I'm, I'm. I'm exaggerating that a little bit, but that's how things build. And so I think the body is, is the first way to actually sense that, okay, something is off kilter and, to listen to that is, is very important. And I think you mentioned earlier, how do you, why finance is, is such a, such a rife area. Well, the world as we live in today, right, is driven by money. We all know this and. The, the way that our system is structured in this current paradigm is that those who control money control everything essentially, right? People do not want to feel out of control or powerless. So they see money as the most powerful thing, like to have money is the most powerful thing.

[00:30:15] Stephanie Wang: Because if you have money, you are able to do. Virtually anything. So, and you, if you look also at the structure of our our current system, teachers are amazing. They're so essential. They make a massive difference. They are paid the worst, just an example, right? And those are like your formative years and you're going to have your children. Be taught by people who are not compensated at all for the level of job that they actually have. And yet you have people, who are in finance, especially of, especially how financialized the stock market and all of the, like our financial system is. So it's not even like in the, in the way old, yonder days when it was like, Oh, you're buying a stock.

[00:30:56] Stephanie Wang: Oh, there's a company behind it. And These days you're trading derivatives. It's just, one swap over another. And you're just, do you know what I mean? It's, you're not actually creating value. You're actually making money on money and, how to say structuring financially structuring one particular product over another, but you're naturally not creating any value for society.

[00:31:18] Stephanie Wang: Right. But guess what? It pays, it pays again. So, why is it so hard? I mean, it's an obvious question, but at the same time I think that, I think that that coupled with our current society, again, being consumer driven we live in a debt based economy We, this economy is based on growth, debt based growth, and. If you look at the fed policy, you look at every, you know what I'm saying? Like it's all about driving consumerism. It's driving consumption. If we don't consume and God forbid, if our economy and people, people don't consume more each day, then we're going, that's it for, for the economy. And of course you compare that with a limited resource planet that we're on. There's a real disconnect. So, and yet we still are in this dilemma

[00:32:10] Raad Seraj: It's so funny, right? Because if you, if you're having that one extra drink or a couple of more drinks, you're creating value and GDP. If you don't have that drink, you're actually extending your life and happiness. It's diametrically opposed to how the economy system works, right? To sometimes how, and I mean, don't get me wrong, we need money, but I mean, the question here is, To your point, money is the proxy for control and control for what?

[00:32:37] Raad Seraj: Ultimately death. We're all going to die. So this, this fake impression that somehow hoarding and having more money and having more material things will, will make sure that you are immortal or some shit like that. That's really the, the fund foundational assumption here, right? That, 

[00:32:54] Stephanie Wang: yeah, no, I'm really glad you brought that up. It's the fear of death. The fear of death is just not living. It's not living. So you're, you may have all those material things, but are you actually living a meaningful life? I don't know. That's the question. right? And I think we live, thank you for, I'm really appreciative that you're, that you brought that up because we live in a death cult. We do. It's the way we consume. It's the way we live. Finance, whether it's finance or not, we live in a very transactional society. There is

[00:33:23] Stephanie Wang: no relationship. Right. And I think that, what plants really teach us, especially sacred and entheogenic plants is how not just healing, but how important it is and how it can help us thrive when we actually come into sacred relationship with God.

[00:33:38] Stephanie Wang: Through plants with plants, but it's what, what they're teaching us

[00:33:42] Stephanie Wang: is how we treat each other. Can we come into relationship with ourselves? Can we respect our own space and our own feelings and allow that to, to, to be right. Instead of kind of pushing and suppressing and disassociating from parts of herself that we don't like, for example. So I think plants definitely teaches that Kanna absolutely teaches that. Especially because of that connection aspect that I talked about and how it basically leads to more emotional openness and empathy, hence. And empathogen and hence Kanna empathogenics we really want to, we were really, double tapping on that because it's really

[00:34:18] Stephanie Wang: what the world needs. Right. And so that connection and that understanding of how everything is connected, not just me to you, but for us to the world and the planet, the animals, the insects that we, that are all around us, we are a subset of life and we are a part of this amazing web of life. We are not, it's. Dominant owner, there's no such thing. And I think the sooner and the more we realize this, then at least we have some hope for humanity. I think that it's so fundamental. And I think a lot of the, the sense of loneliness or, you feel people, why do you drink, you could drink to forget something, or you're really drinking, maybe wanting to connect more, but it doesn't, it's a depressant, right?

[00:34:59] Stephanie Wang: So, so, that I think. It's really speaks to a lot of the depression and that feeling of isolation that human beings have today. And again, Kanna is a beautiful plant that completely helps you come into connection, which is why, why honestly, I, I've. dedicated myself to this, to this, to this mission. And our mission and cause actually to restore full spectrum aliveness for, for all beings. And that full spectrum aliveness is not just joy and happiness, but the full spectrum, including any anger, pain, sadness, because if we don't have that, it's not part of, that's not the full spectrum of what it to be alive.

[00:35:40] Stephanie Wang: And to be alive is to feel all of that. 

[00:35:43] Raad Seraj: Mhm.

[00:35:43] Stephanie Wang: And it's a long way around to just say that I think when we, in any case, when we get overly obsessed with one aspect of life, because wealth, if you look at wealth, there are many pillars, there's, relational wealth society, social capital, you have, of course, financial, but then you have spiritual as well.

[00:36:02] Stephanie Wang: You have health, all of that. It's, it's looking at all of that. Right. And you, May have let's say an overabundance in one aspect, but then what about the rest? What about the rest if you don't have all of that there, life becomes a lot less meaningful.

[00:36:18] Raad Seraj: with you more. I think that's really beautifully said. You really touched on both the macro, the spiritual but also what is existentially at risk, right? I think people who are lonely, disconnected, disempowered They, the world is in the state of absolute disarray because I think fundamentally because of those reasons, right?

[00:36:37] Raad Seraj: Now I was gonna ask you about your most meaningful psychedelic experience. Instead, I think what I'm, what I, what I'm curious about actually, again from a very personal perspective, is as you've gone through your healing journey with plant medicines, facilitated or guided or accelerated by plant medicines, how has your, the identity that you grew up with, right, Being a Hong Konger, right?

[00:36:57] Raad Seraj: And, and I know that sort of like mad dash and rush of Hong Kong having been there. I thought it really odd that when I went to Hong Kong, there were no benches. Anywhere. Anywhere.

[00:37:10] Stephanie Wang: That's really

[00:37:10] Raad Seraj: It was so odd. I, the only bench I found after hours of walking was near a Starbucks in a shopping mall, no benches.

[00:37:17] Raad Seraj: So that tells you everything either. Well, some, a friend of mine told me is because the government doesn't want you to congregate, which it could be partly true, but also that nobody feels the need to sit or stand still. Not until that I would go to Kowloon that I'm like, Oh my God, I can breathe.

[00:37:32] Raad Seraj: Holy shit. It's a different place. Coming back to the sort of the identity you grew up with, where you grew up and then what your parents programmed into you. And, and I, I, I don't believe, I don't believe most parents been, mean to be malicious, right? They're just playing out the same role that they had been instilled into in person, in the, from the perspective of plant medicine and your healing journey.

[00:37:54] Raad Seraj: How has that identity and your relationship with your parents evolved?

[00:37:59] Stephanie Wang: Wow So I just want to be clear I did many many years of My own healing work and a lot of spiritual work before I even encountered

[00:38:09] Stephanie Wang: plant medicine of 11 years ago You So it's not, I, I, it would not be fair for me to say, okay, it's like plant medicine did like,

[00:38:16] Stephanie Wang: did 

[00:38:17] Raad Seraj: of the healing journey in general, like, I mean, that's, yeah. 

[00:38:20] Stephanie Wang: Yeah, I think it was all of that was, I think, definitely part of my healing journey prior to, to plant medicine. And of course, like you said, I think parents are just afraid for us and they project their fears onto us. And so they think, okay, what are the most, what can we teach our kids to make sure that they're going to be okay? I think it was, it was very challenging for me because I, I'm already a very different kind.

[00:38:45] Stephanie Wang: I was a very different kind of. Little girl. And then I think I really just needed to, to break out of Hong Kong because I found Hong Kong very restrictive. It's funny that you mentioned the benches. It's true. Even when I was little, you're right. There were never, it's not like, oh, it's a post handover.

[00:39:00] Stephanie Wang: Now China, there's no benches. No, no, no. This was kind of always the case. You're absolutely right. And yeah, because people were just rushing here and here and, to and fro, and nobody really, contemplated this. There's no such thing. I didn't even know what it was, what was meditation, even though in Chinese culture, there's Tai Chi, there's all of that. Yet the, I would say the, the Hong Kong, Anglo British culture that I grew up in, we had none of that. It was not in my, in my home, there was also none of that. So I think that rush, rush, rush aspect is, is, definitely shaped me in a sense where I never even allowed myself to take a pause. And I think that it took me, at first I mentioned, like I had a, had a breakdown. And I, it took me many years to kind of go through that. And I think that. Hardest part was probably the first two, three years of just dark night of the soul was like horrible and just really confronting the truth of who I was in my own feelings, right?

[00:40:02] Stephanie Wang: Because I was very, very sad as a child. And I didn't even know that. I didn't even know that until I had my breakdown, right? I go, Oh, Oh, my God. I'm actually really depressed, right? And I was still depressed at that time. And then I was like, why am I depressed? So it was, it was all, it's not an, it was not easy, but it was, of course, well worth and the we're worth it.

[00:40:23] Stephanie Wang: And the only way that I could. I could do that. And I think it helped me. I went through a deep process of first of all, acknowledging the pain. It's very important, right? So feeling all the pain of what I had suppressed, then kind of understanding why I was feeling the pain, like where I felt rejected or shamed, and then, okay, well then can I forgive, what, whatever, whoever it may be in my life, whether it's certain family members, whatever, can I forgive that and accept that, of course. In love that there is no, that's to understand that they, I'm an adult now, as a child, I experienced this, but of course I understand where they're, they're coming from and, but I could not have done that without feeling all the pain. And I think that's a step that people often skip. Because they intellectually wanted to say, Oh yes, I'm going to be so spiritual and so high mighty. It's like, it's okay. Everything's okay.

[00:41:14] Stephanie Wang: We don't go through the pain. We don't go through the heart. And I think that is absolutely, absolutely fundamental. We have to feel it in order to process it. So that was huge. And that continues to be a big lesson for me. And that I think over time. You get to the appreciation and the gratitude, right. Of actually having had these experiences and I definitely, I am so grateful to my family of having gone through that kind of a childhood. It shaped me.

[00:41:42] Stephanie Wang: Otherwise you and I wouldn't even be talking today, rad. Like I wouldn't even be on the consciousness track. I wouldn't be doing the Kanna, doing calm pathogenics at all. So I'm deeply grateful to all those challenging moments that I had with my family and it made me who I am. Right. And so it comes to that point finally of acceptance and forgiveness, not just forgiveness, acceptance, but celebration and gratitude of gratitude for what, why and what happened and accepting it, but also celebrating it. And understanding that, hey, we're all here on a path. Each of our path is unique and every person and especially the people who, who causes the most grief, they are our greatest teachers. They really, really are.

[00:42:23] Raad Seraj: Absolutely.

[00:42:23] Stephanie Wang: And so it's like, then you go, how, and then you can look at life with much more equanimity. Again, evenness of

[00:42:30] Stephanie Wang: mind, right? And so it's not overly excited when something great happens, nor are you too upset when something horrible happens again. Those, those are judgments in the moment that may not even necessarily be true. Right. So, yeah. So it's been a, it's been a wonderful journey.

[00:42:46] Raad Seraj: Beautifully said. And it's really interesting to me, being on this podcast, a lot of us who have, who come from cultures that are very, very, very old. We've lost connection to them because of colonization, immigration, migration, whatever you want to call it trauma. None of this is new.

[00:43:04] Raad Seraj: So what's really inspiring to me is this act of remembering, but I don't think you can fully embrace that remembering until you fully embrace all of what life gives you, including painful experiences, including painful memories, right? You can define a good life by how rich. Your experiences have been not just in the hedonic way, but you've expelled the full spectrum of what it feels like to be a human being from the depth of sadness to the sort of like the highest highs and so on.

[00:43:33] Raad Seraj: Coming back to the last part of the interview, Stephanie, I mean, you mentioned a couple of times, this is your life's mission. So I'm very curious. Tell me a little bit from the perspective of a female CEO, what lessons from your life so far are you drawing from and instilling? In building a company.

[00:43:51] Raad Seraj: That's number one. I think you're unfortunately it's rare that there are many female CEOs generally never mind psychedelic or psychedelic adjacent spaces. Maybe there's proportionally more in wellness and health, generally speaking, but as a female CEO, what lessons are you drawing from to build a company?

[00:44:10] Raad Seraj: What do you, what what do you want the company to represent both as a sustainable business? Right? That is profitable. It's growing, but one that is also respectful to the values you're trying to instill.

[00:44:23] Stephanie Wang: Thank you for asking the question. I came into this, the, the impetus for creating this company is very much from my passion for, for human evolution, for evolving consciousness and. I think that had I not had those years of spiritual learning and growth and practice I could not be the CEO or the founder of Climb Pathogenics. And I think this is true. I think we are going to be seeing that in the future as we continue, the most successful companies will be conscious companies. I just think we're at that, at that turning point at this moment. And again, I'm deeply grateful for all the years of learning and practice and grounding that my practice, my own spiritual practices has given me. And so when I launched Ka that has been my North star. What do I mean by that? When I and I think this is a, this has been a huge reason for the success so far of, of Ka is. That whenever, whenever I've had to bring on a new employee or somebody who is a contractor, whoever it may be big or small, it it's always been really, really important to me that they share the same values of reciprocity of, understanding of kindness, of empathy, of compassion, and that they also understand why it is so important to, and what, what Ka is about, first of all about. not just healing, but helping people thrive through connection, through understanding that we are all one. And I don't want to make this sound so like any, it's not woo woo because it may sound like woo woo to someone. And it's not because it's really grounded in this understanding of how how important empathy is and how important it is to number one, Manage a company and run a company with compassion and empathy and of course, all the business acumen and all the business, aspects and the way the best ways, the best practices and running a business, but to also make sure that there's that balance between heart and mind and what I mean, that's exactly cause mission, right?

[00:46:32] Stephanie Wang: It's about right? bringing more head, heart harmony, right? What does it mean to be more Heart centered, that's what, that's what I've always wanted for everyone in the world. It's like, I'm not saying, Hey, ignore the mind. I'm saying, great, our minds are awesome. Our intellect is amazing. Can we ground it with together with our heart?

[00:46:50] Stephanie Wang: So that when we make decisions, we're making decisions that are heart led, but then the mind is also like, okay, what is the best way we can execute this? Or what's the best way we can grow or whatever it is. So the same way that I, I'm very, I'm. I try to work with the most amazing people in whatever the field that they are in. I don't have an ego, as little as I can in who's doing, they're doing great. Fantastic. As, as as a business owner, I think that it's so important to bring in the people who are smarter than

[00:47:22] Stephanie Wang: myself. And I'm surrounded with people who are more talented than me. And I love how, I love how they take whatever I give them and run with it and they always amaze me and I'm so excited.

[00:47:34] Stephanie Wang: Right? And I don't care that I don't know how to do that. I love that. I don't know how to do that. And somebody else is doing it. Right? That's the whole point. That's the whole point of delegation. So I think that's a huge part is just to stay humble and to really bring in the best talent that you can, that's aligned with your mission. And same thing with, and that that alignment is really important because sometimes, Someone may look great on a resume, their belief system,

[00:47:58] Stephanie Wang: maybe not quite, not so much, so, so there's that. And I think that, I mean, you mentioned this thing about identity earlier, which I think you and I, you're also from a ancient culture and so am I. And what has changed over the years that, let's say 20, 30 years ago versus now, for me, is that I identified maybe a lot more as someone who is Chinese from Hong Kong. I grew up this, all the, whatever the, the, the identity tags. Have me, I really don't even think of myself as any of that.

[00:48:32] Stephanie Wang: I am that it's all integrated into me and all of that will be part of me. But who I am through this journey is it's, it's some, it's, it's the me that keeps evolving. It's the me

[00:48:45] Stephanie Wang: that is being. And so when I work with people, when I look at people, when I talk to them, I don't even see, I see them as a soul. Okay. They happen to be Indian or they happen to be white or whatever it is. Right. But that's like, okay, so what,

[00:49:00] Stephanie Wang: like it's, yes, there's a story with that. I'm not saying to ignore the story, but I think that one of the things that evolving consciousness really helps us is to get past the identity, right.

[00:49:09] Stephanie Wang: To integrate that, of course, it's part of you, but to get, get to move beyond that and expand beyond that. And I think that being able to be successful. I think in running a conscious business I think that that is a big aspect that is part and parcel of kind of going beyond that sort of ego realm. Right. And what else can I say about, about being a CEO? I guess, so much of what I do and my decision making, it's, This is going to sound really woo again, but I'm just being honest. I sit and I meditate and it comes to me much is revealed to me. And of course I'm going to use all my Wharton.

[00:49:54] Stephanie Wang: I'm going to use all the, all the ways that. The business school has taught me to, to look at how to run a company, but what I've found that that may be the case. And of course I'm doing that, but the spiritual aspect is, is massive for me and especially in this company. And this is the first time I've actually said this on air to anyone. It's, it's really what has guided me deeply is my own intuition and the guidance that I, I receive whenever I still myself and, connect with what's greater than me.

[00:50:23] Raad Seraj: I love all of that, and I couldn't agree with you more. I think, what makes this space special and you mentioned this, that this is part and parcel of the company and you, is that contemplation is built into it. And it's not to say that meditating tells you what the right thing to do is. For me, it feels like it tells you what you can live with.

[00:50:43] Raad Seraj: Right? And then, from that perspective, how do you do your best? Can't control for everything. In fact, there's very little we can control for. But are we doing our best? Are we trying to do the right thing? And can we, is that, is that the thing that we want to live with, right? And most of us did what we, did our best.

[00:51:02] Raad Seraj: I think the world would already be a much better place. Thank you. But alas, that's the challenge and that's the opportunity. Stephanie, this was a brilliant, brilliant hour. Thank you so much for spending the time here and sharing your experience, outlook on life and what you're building.

[00:51:18] Stephanie Wang: Thank you so much. It's been, it's been great. And I really am grateful because this was a, this was a conversation. This is not an interview of any kind. And I loved the insights you also shared. I, I, and thank you for giving me the opportunity to, to, share some of my deeper, deeper feelings and 

[00:51:37] Raad Seraj: Pleasure was all mine. And it's been really inspiring.