2_1 Heesoo Cho: Transforming Silently, Finding Heritage, and Patient-First Ketamine Assisted Psychotherapy

[00:00:00] Raad Seraj: Welcome to Minority Trip Report. MTR is a podcast spotlighting stories of personal transformation and underrepresented leaders in mental health, psychedelics and consciousness. I'm your host, Raad Seraj. If you're learning from or enjoying Minority Trip Report, please subscribe to MTR on YouTube at Minority Trip Report and follow us on Instagram at Minority Trip.

[00:00:18] Raad Seraj: Thank you and enjoy the episode.

[00:00:20] Today my guest is Heesoo Cho, who is the co-founder of Sabi Mind, a psychedelic assisted therapy clinic group based in Calgary, Alberta. In seeing the devastating impact of serious mental health challenges on friends and family, Heesoo to put his energy and expertise towards opening up safe access to psychedelic treatment with a focus on Ketamine assisted psychotherapy. As managing director of Sabi Mind, Heesoo is responsible for ensuring thats Sabi clinics provide best-in-class patient care in the treatment of chronic mental health and pain.

[00:00:45] Raad Seraj: Heesoo, welcome. 

[00:00:46] Heesoo Cho: Thanks for having me, Raad. Excited to be here. 

[00:00:49] Raad Seraj: I was thinking about how we should start this conversation and before we go into how you grew up, I think it's important to orient our audience around where you are. And I say this particularly because most of our, most of my guests, and certainly I, what I feel is a lot of the conversations that happen are from people in the coast of North America, right?

[00:01:12] Raad Seraj: Whether you're talking about New York or LA or Toronto or Vancouver, there's very few conversations that we have with people from and representing the of middle of the country, right? It doesn't mean it's any less important, it just means that it's not often highlighted and spotlighted.

[00:01:28] Raad Seraj: And so one of the, one of the things that I'm very excited to do in the podcast is really talk about what is happening in Alberta and Calgary. Not to say you're you're representing, you're carrying the weight of the entire population, but I do feel that having spent two very important and transformative years in Calgary and Calgary generally holds a really special place in my heart to this day.

[00:01:50] Raad Seraj: I spent those two years during the pandemic just as it had started, both in isolation, but in, in what that city gave to me and what the people gave to me was truly transformative. I met my now wife there two months in, and so many amazing things have happened. So I would love to hear what it's like to grow up in a place like Calgary and Alberta. And maybe tell us what people get wrong because I feel like, if you're in Ontario or in bc what we hear about Cal Calgary and Alberta is not really what it is, in my opinion. And maybe it's part of what it is, but, as for, I think there's a vested interest in portraying Calgary and Alberta in a certain light always. So tell, let's start there. Sure. Orient us around what is Calgary, what is Alberta, and how, how you see that place. 

[00:02:41] Heesoo Cho: It might have shifted recently, but I feel like for the last little bit, Calgary is, and has been Canada's best kept secret. It's this like very unique place with such a diverse group of people, culture, businesses and it's one of those places that is it has this Magic to it in a sense.

[00:03:03] Heesoo Cho: Being born and raised Calgary obviously seeing kind of the changes that have happened over the last 20 years being integrated in both the energy sectors, but also some of the cultural movements happening in the city as well. It really is becoming a very unique place for the country.

[00:03:18] Heesoo Cho: Being a local, I've known that for a long time. I've always said Calgary is my home, regardless of, going to some of these bigger cities like the Toronto, the Vancouvers, the New York or the LA's, I always found that when I came back to the city, there was this immense feeling of oh, I'm home.

[00:03:32] Heesoo Cho: This is my place, this is my people. There's something for everybody. You have to look a little bit harder because of the size of the city is a bit smaller, but as you well know the city definitely has something for everyone. And I think what, maybe some of the other larger jurisdictions get wrong about Calgary is that.

[00:03:50] Heesoo Cho: We're a bunch of cowboys and boiling gas is the only thing that matters. And to be honest the cowboy culture is fantastic. Stampede is an amazing time and it does wonderful things for the city. Obviously the energy sector is a huge component of what we do here, but I think when strip away all those pieces and you try to connect with somebody here locally on a more human personal level, you find that we are very kind, very compassionate, and very willing to collaborate.

[00:04:18] Heesoo Cho: And I think those three pieces make this city a very exciting place for one future business and organizational opportunities, but also for people to come and enjoy the place and the people and the things that the locals have built. So yeah, that, that is high level Calgary, man. What a place. What a place. 

[00:04:36] Raad Seraj: I think we'll have to talk a little bit more about Stampede, cuz I think in a lot of people's mind, like cowboys stampede. No, 

[00:04:42] Heesoo Cho: and that's a huge part of it, but I feel like what it does for the city the city basically shuts down for 10, 11, 12 days. And the general sentiment from everybody across the board is that people are just happy.

[00:04:55] Heesoo Cho: They're celebrating. Regardless of your personal opinions around some of the activities that happened during Stampede, I think, you know what it does do is it does bring people together. And, obviously sharing experience is a huge component of connection. And those 10 days are, a part of the magic as well.

[00:05:11] Raad Seraj: Hey man. And if there's a lot of cowboys and a lot of drinking and throwing up, that's okay too. That's part of it. That's I just think like you have to take the whole thing in. Yeah. And that's strongly been my experience. I really resonate with the fact that you said, people are very kind and willing to collaborate.

[00:05:25] Raad Seraj: That's strongly been my experience from day one. I'd first gone to Calgary in 2007 while, funny enough I was on the road as a host for much music and doing their web series on what was at that time one of the biggest bands in North America, finger 11. And I already sensed that.

[00:05:43] Raad Seraj: And I think with Calgary, a lot of people don't. Appreciate. And when I say a lot of people, people outside Calgary and perhaps outside Western Canada, is that people are genuinely community oriented. I've haven't sensed that anywhere else in Canada as much as I did, as profoundly as I had in Calgary.

[00:06:00] Raad Seraj: People are genuinely, they want to make the place better. They want to help their neighbors, they want to, they care about it. And I think coming from a big city that's almost a little alarming is what do you want? It's like, why are you talking to me still? I've said this in myself.

[00:06:18] Raad Seraj: I'm like yeah, I just said, hello. I just wanna, I gotta walk away. It's but no it's it's a funny feeling, but where do you think that comes from? Where do you think this innate sense of community and caring and compassion comes from? 

[00:06:29] Heesoo Cho: Oh, I, What I can say is that, more often than not, people are, they follow through, right?

[00:06:40] Heesoo Cho: They're gonna action the things that they talk about. They're gonna put the walk to the walk is not just gonna be about discussing some of these ideas. I think because, one, there's an abundant opportunity here to pursue passions and meaningful pursuits individually for sure.

[00:06:57] Heesoo Cho: There is just the circumstance and the ecosystem allows you to do and I think, if you have that opportunity on an individual level, once you layer in a collaborative mindset and all these people are about the more kind of action oriented tasks of building things that creates an environment where, Things move right where the landscape changes quite rapidly, where new ideas are action gone immediately.

[00:07:22] Heesoo Cho: And you start to see, the ripple effects of these kind of microtransactions that happen all across the board in all different industries. And I think that's what gives the province a bit of that feeling is that people here are really like to move on things. They like to execute and they like to do it in a sense that like they're willing to carry the weight.

[00:07:41] Heesoo Cho: They're not gonna, yeah, they're gonna be accountable for what they say they want to do and they're gonna try their best to execute it on that. And I think that's what helps move the needle forward for us. I think across all industries what you're gonna find here is that people are willing to put in the work.

[00:07:58] Heesoo Cho: And that's a huge piece of why I think the province has seen so much change in the last few years.

[00:08:04] Heesoo Cho: I think just the overall work ethic is generally high and I think it's, everyone's willing to put in a significant amount of effort to accomplish things here.

[00:08:14] Heesoo Cho: And, we've already discussed the open-minded nature towards collaboration, which I think is a huge piece of it as well. I think cold emailing is a great thing to do here. People use your respond. If they can't help you they're, they'll definitely connect you with somebody that might be able to, and I think that's just the general sentiment in, in the kind of business ecosystem here.

[00:08:34] Heesoo Cho: Yeah. Even in the nonprofit sector or any kind of vertical of organizations, I think the willingness to create community and partner is substantial. 

[00:08:43] Raad Seraj: Yeah. I certainly find that too. I think Calgary or Alberta has the highest per capita number of entrepreneurs in the country have certainly sense as very entrepreneurial in the sense that people do stuff.

[00:08:55] Raad Seraj: People get up and they bootstrap and they do things, which I really appreciate. And I think it stems from Alberta's overall sense of fuck you, we're gonna do what we want. And there's the good and bad with that. But I certainly appreciated that a lot when I was there. Cause I'm a bit of, bit like that too.

[00:09:09] Raad Seraj: It's okay, I wanna define myself on my own terms and not be defined by others. Of course, there's political implications of that. But I completely agree. The thing that I, the challenge that I had, and we'll talk a little bit about this later on, is that, I always said that Alberta or Calgary has a branding problem.

[00:09:27] Raad Seraj: It really has a shit brand. And I say that because it's oh, come here because real estate's cheap, or come here because we got mountains. I'm just like, that's not what it's about, man. It's what's the outcome of that? Or come here, Chris is diverse. I'm like, just diversity itself is not I think, and even I speak as a brown dude is not the only thing.

[00:09:46] Raad Seraj: It's, it is re ultimately what you're talking about, community oriented, entrepreneurial as fuck. And so anyway, you can tell I'm a fan. Tell me what it was like to grow up as a Korean Canadian, which you identify as Korean Canadian. What was it like? Born and raised and still very much feeling that Calgary is your home.

[00:10:03] Heesoo Cho: Yeah, I think it goes back to the community piece. Growing up Korean, Canadian, born and raised Calgary, single mom, immigrant parent. Of course there are associated struggles with that circumstance and situation. I feel very blessed that I had a super hardworking mom who was so loving and so caring and definitely taught me about just being a kind person.

[00:10:30] Heesoo Cho: And I'm supremely grateful for that influence in my life because I think, in my later years it's only allowed me to be as empathetic as I am today. In terms of the childhood and the growing up, I didn't really. Realize or contemplate the duality of my childhood in terms of, having Korean heritage, filtering it through a Western Canadian lens.

[00:10:55] Heesoo Cho: Those implications and pressures didn't really associate when I was a kid. I think I did a really great job of integrating myself into what was presented. I found, I found a place existing within whatever was appropriate for me at the time. And that also had to do with me going to seven different schools before grade seven.

[00:11:17] Heesoo Cho: I had to learn how to pick up friends in a quick way. I had to learn to integrate myself into certain scenarios for survival's sake, more so than anything. So I could, either learn or feel supported or support or socialize in general. Interesting. Huge component of that for me was that I really love sports as a kid.

[00:11:38] Heesoo Cho: I've played everything at anything. And when you're a kid, you're physically active. There's a team kind of sentiment, there's a goal in mind. The implications of coming from a different heritage or race get stripped away, right? You have this like immediate bond with your teammates. If you excel in sports, you're put on a pedestal as a kid.

[00:11:59] Heesoo Cho: So the implications of being Korean weren't as visible to me as maybe some of some other individuals. And I think, now that I have time to reflect on it, maybe that was also because that I sheltered myself a little bit from it 

[00:12:14] Raad Seraj: In what sense? 

[00:12:15] Heesoo Cho: I think for me, because I was born here, English was, share my second language in my home, but I picked up an English as soon as I, entered the school system and my, my cultural background was one of a Canadian person, and I, their, there are circumstances when I saw some of my classmates who maybe moved here when they were older, when they were in junior high or high school, and they had a very different experience.

[00:12:39] Heesoo Cho: They had no context for the cultural nuances of being a Canadian. They could barely speak English. And for me I guess at an early age removed myself from those situations and didn't do as good of a job as maybe I could have in terms of trying to relate to that. I think, my, my cultural identity when I was young was that of I'm Canadian, yes, I'm Korean on the background, but I am Canadian.

[00:13:03] Heesoo Cho: And yeah I think. That only, 

[00:13:06] Raad Seraj: so it sounds like it was very free flowing, right? Yeah. A lot of the times I felt like as minorities we get reminded that we're different. We don't necessarily, Yeah. Take that in. And we don't do that to ourselves in a way. 

[00:13:17] Heesoo Cho: Yeah. And you, we definitely, I definitely came across racist, racist and situations where I felt like, my skin color was different and maybe some of my, my, my cultural there were definitely times where I felt different, but I don't think I had the immense yeah I guess what I'm trying to say is that for me, I always felt Canadian.

[00:13:38] Heesoo Cho: There wasn't a time where I didn't feel welcome in being a Canadian. And I was proud to be I was lucky enough to represent the country playing sports. And so like my, my. National identity was very robust. I had, I bled red and white, like I, I truly did love it. And then that all shifted somewhat recently when I went to Korea right before the pandemic in 2019.

[00:14:01] Heesoo Cho: I had been there multiple times before, but it was the first time where I really resonated with my heritage and with the Korean people and with my culture. And it was the first time where I belonged for myself to get a better understanding of the history of my people and maybe some of the more deeper implications of who I am and where I come from.

[00:14:23] Heesoo Cho: And so I guess it's only been within the last four or five years where I've taken the time to get a better understanding of that piece of my life. And yeah, it's been interesting to see the shift. I don't have the why yet but it's been really exciting to dive a bit deeper into Yeah.

[00:14:41] Heesoo Cho: Where my people come from for sure. 

[00:14:43] Raad Seraj: Often I find that it's not, the answer that's interesting is the fact that there's a question to ask. Or a better question to ask. I think the fact that there's a why here to explore is ex exciting and interesting. Hold on to that thought, cause I'm gonna come back to it.

[00:14:56] Raad Seraj: Tell me a little bit about your mom. 

[00:14:59] Raad Seraj: Yeah. So comes from a very large family. Five sisters, two brothers. Did she grow up here? She moved to Canada. She moved to Canada when she was 14. Went to junior high school here in Calgary and high school here in Calgary. Went to university in Edmonton. Met my biological father, had me all while trying to figure out what it's like to be a young adult in Canada.

[00:15:24] Raad Seraj: And yeah, I I've only somewhat recently been able to have deeper discussions about her experience. One, I think because of maybe my willingness to explore that at a younger age or maybe my capacity to understand on a deeper level what that actually meant and her journey meant. That has obviously changed now.

[00:15:47] Raad Seraj: But also I think on her side of things, there was maybe some reluctance to dive deeper into it. Cause maybe there is a bit of I don't wanna say pain, but there was definitely a lot of struggle. And as a mom sharing that struggle can be challenging and I can totally respect that. So it's only been somewhat recently where we've been able to connect on a deeper level of better her journey here.

[00:16:09] Raad Seraj: And it's been one of yeah, it's. Immigrant life. It's like everything is harder. Everything's a lot more challenging. The opportunities are less, the community is smaller. And so yeah it's it's a difficult experience for sure. And then on the other side, being able to stay so caring and compassionate and trying to maybe shelter me from some of those hardships.

[00:16:37] Raad Seraj: It's just like you're superhuman. You are. Yeah. To be able to do that is is quite powerful for sure. 

[00:16:44] Raad Seraj: Oh, moms are superhuman. I really believe that. When did your, does your father or biological father still have a place in your life? 

[00:16:52] Heesoo Cho: No, I haven't. Yeah, I haven't had a relationship since I was very young.

[00:16:57] Heesoo Cho: My mom is now since remarried. So I have two step. I have step and stepsister who I loved dearly. I always wanted siblings growing up, but I was an only child. And it was only I guess when I was 20 that they came into my life. Yeah, it I wish we would've had the opportunity to grow up together in our younger years.

[00:17:21] Heesoo Cho: Just seeing like the opportunity to support each other throughout maybe some of the more challenging times as being a, for sure, I would've loved that. But yeah it's great to have them now in my life, for sure. 

[00:17:34] Raad Seraj: Okay. It sounds you've been asking or you've been exploring.

[00:17:38] Raad Seraj: So you said, you mentioned you got very close with your mom. In terms of a actually revisiting her life and understanding her life, which she's also sounds like she's very op, much more open to speaking about her. Maybe it's because your cap capacity to understand that now or maybe something's changed on her.

[00:17:54] Raad Seraj: Do you feel like you wanna connect with your dad as well? Is there a yearning Yes. Is something you thought about? 

[00:18:00] Heesoo Cho: All the time. Of course. All the time. Growing up all the time. I, there growing up as, especially as a, a young immigrant male. I, of course, wanted the opportunity to understand what being a man is through the lens of my lineage.

[00:18:17] Heesoo Cho: And I, of course I didn't have that through the direct biological father imprint, but what I did have was the opportunity to connect with multiple friends and their fathers. And I really feel really grateful that I had a community and a village that helped raise me more than one singular person.

[00:18:37] Heesoo Cho: Were there times where I was frustrated for sure, were there times where I was angry and resentful? Absolutely. But I think, looking back on those opportunities to get diverse input, diverse ways of understanding what being quote unquote a man is yeah. I feel more grateful to have that experience than the other way around.

[00:19:01] Heesoo Cho: So to answer your question, would I connect with him? Sure. But I don't think I would go out of my way to do yeah, 

[00:19:08] Raad Seraj: You didn't feel the absence per se given that you had all these other positive male role models and father figures in your life. Yeah. How does how does your family see what you're doing now?

[00:19:22] Raad Seraj: Do they understand it? Do they see it as something like, oh, ketamine? Or is it like, no, he's just doing something really cool. He's building a business. He's an entrepreneur. Yeah, and I asked that before, obviously I'm gonna talk a little bit about, because it's part of your bio, is that, the prevalence of mental health challenges in your family, that was an impetus for you to build what you're building right now.

[00:19:41] Raad Seraj: How does your family generally understand what you're doing? 

[00:19:44] Heesoo Cho: I, I don't think they understand the finer details of it quite yet, but that's okay because they're immensely supportive and Yeah. It's weird. I think the last thing they wanted to see me do is become an entrepreneur because so many of them were entrepreneurs and they understood how difficult and challenging it could be, and it can be.

[00:20:05] Heesoo Cho: And when I was younger, there was immense pressure to become a lawyer or a doctor or an engineer or something with just a bit more stability. But now that I can say that I, my colleagues are physicians and, we work with, some of these individuals, I think they understand it through that lens that it's not just they understand the serious nature of it and the validity of it and they're very supportive on that front.

[00:20:28] Heesoo Cho: But we're still working on the finer details. They, and I think that'll be a work in progress for a long time. There's a time for it all. Yeah. Yeah. And then, yeah, on the mental health side of things, I think now that I've had, experience with my own journey, my own mental health journey, just trying to formulate ideas on how we can start conversations with the generations before us.

[00:20:54] Heesoo Cho: And that was a huge realization for me is that there's a lot we should be talking about. How do we go about talking about it? I think there is definitely a language barrier of con. Context barrier in terms of approaching these conversations. Maybe an unwillingness to dive into some of the more shadow esque topics of, some of the struggles that, parent and kid went through in the immigrant family journey.

[00:21:23] Heesoo Cho: And what moved the needle for me personally is my own experiences with psychedelics in therapy. And so leveraging that and hopefully providing opportunities for others to do outside of the family piece specifically, I lost a very close friend to suicide in 2019.

[00:21:39] Heesoo Cho: And he was he was my boss, but also a mentor. He was my bigger brother, sometimes. He was my father. He was like probably the most influential person in my life, in my twenties. And to see him, Passed away the way he did was like, you are shattering. I had no context for anything anymore because he was the happiest, brightest person.

[00:22:07] Heesoo Cho: Mr. Sitting with it diving deeper into it, you realize that there were these signs and maybe opportunities where. Certain interventions could have been at least discussed or approached or just general, I guess awareness around mental health implications could have been higher and of course should, would've coulda, hindsight is 2020, but that missed opportunity is really what the catalyst was for Savvy Mind.

[00:22:35] Heesoo Cho: Hey, how can we, look at opportunities to support the mental health solution system. Psychedelics looks like it provides a significant opportunity to do how do we intRaaduce it through the legal medical lens where there's this incredible layer of safety and efficacy, but also an opportunity to maybe widen the scope of how we approach mental health.

[00:22:57] Heesoo Cho: And that's why we. Do what we do is to, hey, if we can increase curiosity and awareness around all things mental health and then potentially provide solutions on the backend, let's do it.

[00:23:09] Raad Seraj: Thanks for sharing of the inspiration here. What do you think, looking back, of course, hindsight is 2020, what do you think your friend was struggling with that he could not share? Was it, what was it, what was exactly the blocker, you think? 

[00:23:24] Heesoo Cho: Yeah, An insane amount of pressure in the work environment.

[00:23:28] Heesoo Cho: I think he carried, he was the tip of the spear and he was the hand that held it. Like he sheltered us from a lot of the maybe more challenging conversations. He was, always the driving force. I think I. What people may not understand about the hospitality industry is that there are days when you don't want to be a part of the show.

[00:23:49] Heesoo Cho: There are days when you don't want to be center stage. You don't want to put on the act, you don't want to put on the mask, but you have to. And I think over time when you do that so frequently and you're not mindful about, ensuring that who you are as a person also gets to take main stage, outside of the workplace you lose your identity a little bit.

[00:24:15] Heesoo Cho: You lose your sense of self. You lose the ability to understand when and where the mask comes into play and where and when. Your values or morals or boundaries also come into play too. And I think all those implications plus being around substances all the time, it's just a combination for potential harm if you're not.

[00:24:36] Heesoo Cho: Immensely mindful about what you're doing. And so I, I think that a huge influence on it. But I also think maybe that the stigma piece is huge in that scenario is that, we all pretended like we were doing so well because we were so scared of being vulnerable and open with each other and then talking about, maybe what was actually going on behind the scenes.

[00:25:03] Raad Seraj: I feel like most of us are performing one way or another on our best days, nevermind in hospitality and entertainment. When I've worked in that space for many years. There's this of outer shell, there's this thing you have to portray the mask that has to stay on and it.

[00:25:19] Raad Seraj: You couple that with alcohol and substances, which gives you a false sense of bravado. You think you're living your true self and true life. And then of course, underneath it is this, almost like turmoil, and even outside the space. And I'm curious to hear your thoughts, we'll talk about this later on, is this I do feel like it's prevalent, mental health, turmoil and despair and like loss of crisis and struggles are, it feels like it's all over the entertainment, hospitality space.

[00:25:48] Raad Seraj: But before we talk about that, how did you cope with the loss of your friend? You mentioned your own of mental health journey with psychedelics and so on, but what was that like? 

[00:25:58] Heesoo Cho: They didn't do it very well. It was a lot of trial and not error, I don't wanna say error, but it was a lot of trial, trying different things, getting different perspectives.

[00:26:08] Heesoo Cho: I think what I realized and I'm grateful for is that moment really showed me that I had also been following down a very similar path. I didn't really have a great understanding of who I was. My personal identity and values were basically nonexistent. And so I was starting from scratch and I was, this was right before the pandemic.

[00:26:31] Heesoo Cho: After he had passed, I doubled down with work, took on all the responsibilities that he had and just dug myself a deeper hole. God bless the pandemic. And I know that's a challenging thing for me to say because it had such a negative impact on so many others, but for me it was really an opportunity to just lean everything out in my life.

[00:26:53] Heesoo Cho: I was, didn't have work staring, right back at me for two months. And so I had all this time to figure out who I was as a person. And it was the most challenging process I had ever been through. Going from having no time to having all the time, all the space and capacity to face yourself when you don't recognize a person you're looking at is terrifying.

[00:27:19] Heesoo Cho: It's terrifying. And so it, obviously the traditional talk therapy route was super beneficial in terms of giving me kind of high level tools and frameworks to start thinking about these topics and ideas. Some of the wellness practices like meditation move the needle for me immensely.

[00:27:37] Heesoo Cho: Like I went on almost a 200 day streak of doing at least five to 30 minutes a day. And it really helped me with the contextualization of space and time and filling your own space. And that for me was like the foundation for me trying to build who I was and that identity piece. And then obviously psychedelics, I was really lucky enough to find a psilocybin practitioner had a couple sessions and transformational man, like eye-opening, heart opening, spirit opening, all these pieces that like you're in awe of like how grandiose the human existence can be and how small you're part in. It is, and that is so wonderful, and I don't wanna say reassuring, but it it just puts things into perspective. And for me, I think compounding all those pieces and opportunities to like, take the time to put in the work and figure out who I was and am and who I want to be.

[00:28:46] Heesoo Cho: It really started what will be a lifetime journey of figuring that out. And I think psychedelics has a part to play in it, but I also want to caveat that with what works for me is not gonna work for everybody. And I think we need to communicate that a little bit more effectively in the space.

[00:29:04] Heesoo Cho: And we also have to do a better job of taking away all the hype around the medicine piece specifically. They're very powerful tools, and in the right scenarios can be very effective. But what's more important is the individuals themselves and their willingness and capacity to, to in the work associated with it.

[00:29:23] Heesoo Cho: Psychedelics really powerful for me, but for everyone, take your time, do your research, find a good support system. 

[00:29:31] Raad Seraj: Yeah, I, so well said. Recognizing that these are very powerful tools and not the end in and of itself is really important, I think, because sometimes we get too infatuated with the sensations and the consumption, and, and if fun is the end goal.

[00:29:49] Raad Seraj: Absolutely. I think absolutely. The question is how do you do it safely, but if transformation is the goal, I think you're right. I, we need to talk about it much more openly about, what else do you couple it with? Good relationships, friendships, support community good habits are equally important as these tools open you up.

[00:30:10] Raad Seraj: What did you know, like how did, so talking about it was right for you. How did you know it was right for you and what did you know about psychedelics beforehand? 

[00:30:17] Heesoo Cho: Not a lot. Everything was filtered through a recreational lens before this, I think, I had tried psilocybin and LSD in my younger years, had really negative experiences because I just didn't have the context to understand what was going on.

[00:30:32] Heesoo Cho: Also, I don't think that the level of respect needed was there for me personally. The way I found it was interesting o obviously I I don't wanna say obviously, but I was following the cannabis kind of trajectory through the medical legal markets and then obviously the recreational market for Canada.

[00:30:49] Heesoo Cho: Alongside that news flow, you'd start to see a little bit of the psychedelic kind of ecosystem developing, jump down the rabbit hole there just to see what the space was about, realize that like it was this never ending. Space of like ideas, researchers, people who had come before obviously some corporations, but it was just like immense space and with very interesting intelligent people.

[00:31:18] Heesoo Cho: So got very curious. Started attending some conferences online. Realized that I needed to figure out a way to try it in more of a traditional therapeutic setting. Was lucky to have a community that maybe knew some way ins. And then I went through my first experience and it was really difficult.

[00:31:38] Heesoo Cho: It was had to do a lot with closure and reconciling what had happened in the last couple years. The second experience for me was the one where I knew it was like, okay, there's something here. Everyone talks about the meeting of God or meeting of the higher power.

[00:31:55] Heesoo Cho: And I had one of those experiences. And I was very surprised the form that this entity came in. It was like, yeah you could just feel this immense, deep presence that wasn't frightening by any means, but it did demand a certain level of respect and. Then I realized that in that moment that I was connected to this presence.

[00:32:25] Heesoo Cho: And then, everyone talks about the interconnected piece. And for me that moment, how awe inspiring it was shifted a lot of things and my capacity to believe in certain things as well. And I think I will carry that moment with me for the rest of my life. And I think when certain situations do come up where that experience is put into question or, life can get challenging at times.

[00:32:52] Heesoo Cho: I think I lean into moments like that where the situations seem less abrasive or tough or challenging as they do. So. 

[00:33:02] Raad Seraj: Thanks for sharing. Obviously I have to ask the question. Do you talk about your experience and transformation openly and have you shared with your family and your Korean Canadian community?

[00:33:16] Heesoo Cho: No, I haven't. And I have with maybe, some of my cousins who are my age and understand and maybe have also gone through similar experiences. I haven't quite yet with the older generation my mom, my aunties, my uncles, just only because the ability to understand the what and the how maybe isn't there.

[00:33:44] Heesoo Cho: The ability to understand the why is definitely there. And I think that would be a great starting place to do but I feel like at this time the conversation would be quite limited. And that's okay. And that's a fine place to start. I just haven't taken the time to do so quite yet.

[00:33:59] Heesoo Cho: Do I speak about my experiences openly with my community? Yes, for sure. I think I'm pretty private as I do enjoy brevity, so I keep, my story short and sometimes I try not to share them at all. But in the right circumstances, absolutely. I'm willing to share.

[00:34:18] Heesoo Cho: I think I need, definitely need to do a better job of it in terms of supporting maybe some of the stigma shift in conversations for sure. I could be a better advocate on that front. But also, they're supremely private experiences. They're like, they're so yeah, so private, so special that it's it's hard to put to words this experience that was life altering, right?

[00:34:40] Heesoo Cho: And maybe that's the struggle that I have too, is that one, I don't want to sound too woo. That always comes in the pictures. 

[00:34:47] Raad Seraj: There's enough of that. We don't need more of that woowoo stuff here. 

[00:34:50] Heesoo Cho: Exactly. And so you want to keep it real and you want to keep it relatable, but also you want to keep it true to your experience.

[00:34:56] Heesoo Cho: And that's a really challenging thing to do. And so I guess to answer your question, yes, I do share, but I need to do a better job of it. 

[00:35:05] Raad Seraj: I understand that totally. And I'm actually share a lot of that position, because I've, on one hand it's the question is how much do I share that it's universal and should be less, Destigmatized, which is that conversation around mental health.

[00:35:19] Raad Seraj: Because ultimately, like whether you're doing meditation, whether you're seeing someone, that's the important part to me, psychedelics could be part of your journey or maybe not, but that's okay. But it is a journey that we have to get on. Doesn't matter what the pit stops are, it psychedelics is part of that journey.

[00:35:36] Raad Seraj: Eventually at some point, great, but that's the part. But the other hand, I like you, I'm very private with some of the most like profound aspects of my journey. What came up, not because I'm shy, not because I don't want to share, but it's because there for me and maybe therefore my, the closest people in my life.

[00:35:56] Raad Seraj: And maybe that's who I wanna share it with. And that's, I feel completely fine with that. Nobody's entitled to my story of transformation in a way. I only share them if it helps and uplifts others. I, it is not like a drum I wanna bang all the time, like I did psychedelics, I, I don't, I definitely don't want to be that cuz the next thing you know what's gonna happen, I'm gonna sell courses on Instagram.

[00:36:16] Raad Seraj: Please buy my, yeah.

[00:36:18] Raad Seraj: No, I really appreciate that framing, Heesoo. Thank you. I wanna switch gears a bit and talk about what you guys are doing cuz again, I think it's really special. No one else that I've spoken with is doing it in the way that you guys are doing it and doing the work and building a network of clinics.

[00:36:33] Raad Seraj: Talking about ketamine assisted psychotherapy. You guys are doing the first clinical trial with psilocybin and alcohol use disorder in Alberta. I think that's pretty special. So I wanna talk about that, but I wanna pull out a of stat that feels is the of premise for this kind of work.

[00:36:48] Raad Seraj: And for this particular clinical study, which is over three quarters of Albertan's age 15 and older report drinking alcohol and per capita consumption in Alberta continues to be higher than the national average. Heavy alcohol use is recognized as a third leading risk factor for premature death and disability, and is a known risk factor for many preventable chronic diseases including cardiovascular disease, cancer, and diabetes.

[00:37:13] Raad Seraj: Why do you think this is so prevalent? It's an issue in modern society, but why do you think it's so prevalent in Alberta? 

[00:37:21] Heesoo Cho: Hearing that stat is not shocking by any means. I lived it like, my, my circle of friends and the way I brought was brought up. We started drinking at a very young age, even around that time of 15, 14.

[00:37:33] Heesoo Cho: And have been doing so for, since then. The why piece, I think I can only speak to that from a personal standpoint. I think it has to do with maybe access, right? Or drinking legal ages, eighteens here. Not that I'm gonna speak on the legal system at all, but I feel like there, there's an opportunity to access liquor at a young age through certain means here.

[00:37:57] Heesoo Cho: That maybe isn't quite available in other places. I think, in, and I can't really speak on it now, but the high school and university cultures here in Alberta are very aligned with a drinking culture. Whether that is through sport, whether that is through community, whether that is through fraternities.

[00:38:16] Heesoo Cho: There, there's definitely is a piece of, being in Albertan that is associated with drinking that you can see when you come here. If you're from Vancouver and you come to Calgary, you're gonna see patios that are full with people drinking beer anytime it's sunny throughout the year.

[00:38:32] Heesoo Cho: Oh yeah. I don't remember. You are. Yeah, you are gonna see like a very robust nightlife food and beverage scene. And I think people en enjoy it and rightfully I think there's something to be said about a healthy relationship with alcohol, that can be beneficial and that can be positive.

[00:38:48] Heesoo Cho: It's just how do we have the conversation around when does that become too much? Coming from the hospitality industry, I definitely saw the need for interventions around alcoholism and substance abuse in general. I feel very excited that we have the opportunity with Clair Boy to do so with this psilocybin trial.

[00:39:08] Raad Seraj: Yeah it's, I think the prevalence of blue collar, it's a blue collar economy by and large, as you mentioned, right? It's very much around resource extraction, resource resources, and every province in Canada, would be foolish to say, Canada is not a resource intensive and resource extractive nation. But I think the prevalence of blue collar jobs and blue collar lifestyle, and not to mention it's cold a lot of the year. And so drinking is obviously a part of the coping mechanism, but it's also I completely agree with you. Like some of the best food and drinks I've had in Alberta. Not Thai food.

[00:39:42] Raad Seraj: I would say that's one of the worst Thai food I've had in my life was in Alberta. But the barbecue's fantastic. 

[00:39:47] Heesoo Cho: Going to the wrong place is my friend. I'll show you around next time you're here. Oh my God. 

[00:39:53] Raad Seraj: I laugh at that still. Somebody told me it's because like I love Thai food, and then I went to Calgary and someone's oh, you gotta try this place.

[00:39:58] Raad Seraj: I'm like, I try it. And with my wife I'm like, this is, fuck it bullshit man. This is like orange ketchup. It's not Pad Thai. But anyway, but the barbecue is fantastic. But where I'm going with that is I think the prevalence of blue collar economies with a of, i, I would say seasonal labor.

[00:40:14] Raad Seraj: A population I think maybe has something to do with that. Tell me a little bit about Sabi Mind. What is Sabi Mind and why is this particular clinical study, which is again the first in Alberta, which is fantastic, why is this so important for you guys? What are you trying to say and what are you trying to demonstrate?

[00:40:33] Heesoo Cho: I think when it comes to the study, let's start there. It's very important because I, when you look at even our main service offering, which is Ketamine assisted psychotherapy for mental health and chronic pain conditions, those are the only two avenues that are currently applicable for Ket.

[00:40:49] Heesoo Cho: We're not even scratching the addictions piece because there isn't guidance quite yet from our college or government to do that. We can have, these new novel interventions for mental health conditions and chronic pain indications. But the addiction stream is still the addiction stream, and there hasn't been any innovation in that space for however long.

[00:41:09] Heesoo Cho: And you and I know both that, so for us to have an opportunity to lace in some of the principles of what we're doing with psychedelics through this clinical trial to support that community, fantastic. We love to see it. We love to support it. And the fact that it's a sponsored trial, increasing access is a huge component of what we're about, what we're working on.

[00:41:30] Heesoo Cho: I'm interested to see, one, the outcomes, but also the future opportunities. Once the data does come out will we have guidance to expand our ketamine program to intRaaduce substance abuse indications down the road? What does this do for the coverage piece of these treatments? Obviously a huge barrier to these treatments around the world right now is the price point.

[00:41:52] Heesoo Cho: And so how quickly can we mobilize the data both from our, main practice from the clinical trial, leverage the data present to third party payers, present to regulators to show one, the medical efficacy, the safety, but also the economic impact and value down the road? Yes, we're a down street treatment center, but I think our approach and our modality is actually more upstream than anything. We're looking at maybe shifting mindset to a prophylactic mindset where you're a bit preventative. And I think that's the future opportunity. We're supporting a client base right now that is is and have tried everything in the space. And they're looking for alternatives or they're looking for different solutions because their needs are being met.

[00:42:40] Heesoo Cho: But down the road, how do we support healthy people who also want to, ensure that their mental health stays. Where it's at or, expands and grows. And so for us I think that's the future that we're trying to build. I think, everything that we do right now is to support the community that needs it the most.

[00:42:58] Heesoo Cho: But I think with ketamine and our clinic network we're really building the foundation for the future. When, access is unilaterally, increased coverage is there. And so the opportunity for more individuals to experience these types of modalities is also there. Of course this is to say that it's not for everyone, right?

[00:43:21] Heesoo Cho: It's not going to be, but I think people should have the option to at least explore it. As an option for them. They should have the opportunity to educate themselves, feel empowered to make the right decision on whether or not this could be a beneficial intervention for them. And then looking down the road, you're familiar with maps, MDMA, the whole FDA process there just a matter of time, they're saying October of this year.

[00:43:45] Heesoo Cho: Who knows if that happens? We'll see, health Canada will probably follow suit. Psilocybin right now is making its kind of journey along with Health Canada. And I think we're excited for those opportunities to integrate those compounds into our practice as well down the road. 

[00:44:02] Raad Seraj: Fantastic. There's so many things that you just said that I feel is really important to highlight. One of them is, I really believe if you get beyond extreme pain and peak performance, this is in middle ground, which is how do people integrate interventions like this?

[00:44:18] Raad Seraj: Again, whether it's meditation, whether it's you know, therapy, whether it's ketamine, assists, psychotherapy, how do you integrate that into a day in, day out, right? How does it become part of your life as a way to come back to center, as a way to maintain a positive relationship with your surroundings, have good relationships that are nurturing and so on.

[00:44:38] Raad Seraj: One of those one, and as you mentioned, rightfully one of the biggest barriers is coverage. The cost right now, I think when most people, if you're in the psychedelic ecosystem, will look at a clinical network and the first thing that comes to mind is something, let's say like a field trip or something like that.

[00:44:55] Raad Seraj: Field trip unfortunately has folded recently as we all know. How is Sapi mind? Different from what, let's say a field, the approach field trip was taking. And I've been really impressed. I've known you for two years, probably now at this time. Like I met you at the tail end of me departing Alberta. So how I'm very impressed by your framing of it and the fact that you are willing to go slow and steady, the fact that you're willing to do the foundational work.

[00:45:21] Raad Seraj: How does, how do you stand out as a clinical network, not just in relationship field trip, but overall, what of tone are you setting? 

[00:45:28] Heesoo Cho: We've always been hyper-focused, o on becoming improving and executing on clinic model. We haven't ever really veered away from that. When we set out to open up a clinic, it's let's build the best clinic with the best people, best offering we can.

[00:45:44] Heesoo Cho: And I think because with psychedelics is a unique experience to. Explore not only healthcare, but experience curation, which is hospitality. There is a unique opportunity to really lean into what we call the pillars. We're a brick and mortar service based company, meaning that we live and die by the people that we hire, the people we help.

[00:46:07] Heesoo Cho: The pRaaduct of what we actually offer, which is kidney assistance psychotherapy Right now. The people in pRaaduct, obviously significant, the place, so jurisdictions matter to us as well. Calgary, near and dear to our hearts, wanted to ensure that it had a place and a say on the national stage.

[00:46:26] Heesoo Cho: We didn't want to just follow what Toronto and Vancouver were doing and, last and most importantly, purpose, like, why are we doing this? Is it just for the monetary upside of building a psychedelic startup? No, it's not. I think if nothing else, Sabi will always be a community-based response.

[00:46:45] Heesoo Cho: Meaning that no matter where we are, Calgary, Edmonton, Victoria, if we expand further, we will be hyper-focused and critical and do the work to ensure that what we provide is informed by both the practitioners that we hire, but also the community we're looking to support. Extensive engagement both through traditional stakeholder engagement, but just getting out into the community to get an understanding of like, where's the gap and how do we support and does, what we've formulated in the background actually resonate with the audience, right?

[00:47:17] Heesoo Cho: You've been to the space in Calgary, obviously it has a certain aesthetic. Will this be the case for Edmonton? Probably not. We're probably gonna dow some of those pieces back because what works for the. Audience here in Calgary isn't what's gonna work in Edmonton. And so to go back to your statement about going slower than maybe some of these organizations, we do that because there's an in intentionality around it there.

[00:47:42] Heesoo Cho: We take the time to make the right connections with the right practitioners, but then also take the time to figure out what would best what would best support the community that we're looking to be a part of. 

[00:47:55] Raad Seraj: Where does best in class patient care in this particular setting mean? And I'm asking this from a perspective of raising capital, right?

[00:48:04] Raad Seraj: Because I think there's obviously an what it feels like an innate battle between saying best in class, patient-centric, value-based care, and then what traditional, let's say venture backed businesses end up becoming or traditional VC capital, what they want to see are you seeing. That your investor base and you are raising capital, are you seeing that there's a better understanding of this space or do you have to spend a lot of time educating your investors about what, how this place is different?

[00:48:36] Raad Seraj: So it's not just like a network of clinics, it's a very different kind of model of care. I think the. 

[00:48:42] Raad Seraj: It depends on the type of investor that we're speaking to. There's obviously the individuals who are pretty familiar with the content of psychedelics. They're definitely in every conversation is a lot of time spent on why we're different or our approach.

[00:48:59] Raad Seraj: And when it comes to us, pursuing the best in class pieces, that we will always stay hyper critical about our practices. It's always gonna be efficacy, safety, access. How are we moving the needle on those three pieces every day? And how are we ensuring that The team is also aligned to do and going back to the time it has taken for us to enter these new jurisdictions is exactly that is, is finding the right people and the right timing to, to execute on these things. I think when you look at our model specifically, we've done some unique things but I'm not gonna dive too deep into, but from a more of a, I guess business lens and aspect, we've definitely.

[00:49:44] Raad Seraj: Altered the approach to a traditional clinic that has given us opportunity to be maybe a bit more flexible than some of these other providers. Yeah. And a bit more longevity as well. And that'll be the case moving forward, I think. Yeah. The model itself 

[00:50:00] Raad Seraj: is unique. So how do you position yourself when when you're speaking to investors in terms of the return profile?

[00:50:06] Raad Seraj: And I, again, I want to, I wanna position it in terms of, I think people who support their patients, who support people and communities and services that support people in communities well, are the ones that will be profitable, that will be here for the long term. I re I sincerely believe that.

[00:50:25] Raad Seraj: So how do you convince an investor that this is the right play for the brick and mortar model? 

[00:50:30] Heesoo Cho: Yeah, I think when you look at exit opportunities or liquidity opportunities for us, because we've the way we've built the backend, we're flexible in that sense. There's different trajectories in terms of how we can take this vessel to ensure that shareholder value is there. When we do have opportunities for exit I think, we have contemplated and have come across opportunities for a public transaction.

[00:50:54] Heesoo Cho: I don't think the timing is right for that. We have, entertained, Bigger PE opportunities really scaling the clinic network, looking at more of a traditional m and a opportunities for early shareholders. But I think it goes back to exactly what you said, regardless of, which opportunity we take, if we focus on what we're doing right now, build a really strong business.

[00:51:14] Heesoo Cho: Look for opportunities to, add additional revenue streams and income opportunities. The future exits will take care of themselves, right? And I think the longer we're here, the more opportunity to take hold of the market share to really be the industry leader. Both from a service and pRaaduct side, but also in an advisory capacity to regulators as well.

[00:51:38] Heesoo Cho: I think right now, If the potential investor has the patience to wait and see how this market really develops, if they pick us as their pony, we're positioned really nicely to one, have visibility on upstream drug development coming through pipeline, through clinical trials, but also what at the end of the day is gonna be the bread and butter is potential clients and the actual consumer of these pRaaducts.

[00:52:07] Heesoo Cho: We're in the middle ground. Between that we have real infrastructure that is providing these treatments day in, day out, moving the needle forward, having positive treatment outcomes, compound that for the next 12, 16, 18 months when the landscape will look very different. I think the opportunities for exits will be abundant, but for now, the conversation that we have is that we're hyper focused on what we're doing.

[00:52:32] Heesoo Cho: We've built a business that has fundamentals and that can survive. Do this consistently position ourselves as a leader when it comes to exit. We'll have options. 

[00:52:43] Raad Seraj: I current agree with you more. I think it is back to basics, back to fundamentals, right? The zero interest environment is done. I don't think it's gonna come back any time.

[00:52:50] Raad Seraj: So it's investing in everything like it's software, it's dumb shit to be honest. And I think course correcting not only for fundamentals, but also investor psychology, I think is really important, right? So understand anything that is impact oriented, we are literally correcting for the last 200 years in a lot of ways of mass industrialization and how it's fucked up people.

[00:53:13] Raad Seraj: I'm not saying it come, I'm not saying it come without immense benefit to society, like we are doing this remotely, right? All this has come out of that. So it's not a matter of good or bad. I think it's a matter of do we get, honestly, choose the future we want and what bits and pieces do we go with forward?

[00:53:31] Raad Seraj: Let's come back, bring it all, we're almost at time. So I have a one last question for you, and I'm gonna ask you to think back to your why, which I know you haven't answered yet, but it's an, it's a question that you've asked given that your re story of transformation, experience with psychedelics, understanding yourself better, having a better appreciation of your culture, of your heritage, having a better, more closer relationship with your mother, being a business leader, being a leader, trying to be a thoughtful leader and trying to navigate and build a good business through this very complex, challenging time.

[00:54:05] Raad Seraj: What do you think, and perhaps you're, we didn't talk, touch on your time as a Canadian as an athlete. Maybe borrow from that as well. What do you think makes a good, thoughtful leader, particularly at this point of time? As a person of color, as a Korean Canadian and so on. 

[00:54:27] Heesoo Cho: Huge question to finish on.

[00:54:31] Heesoo Cho: Huge. You're familiar with Ray Dalio? Yeah. Meaningful pursuits, meaningful relationships. I think those two pieces resonate really deep with me, and I think when it comes to being a leader, there's a certain level of responsibility for you to create spaces, safe spaces for people to do those two things, to go after meaningful pursuits and to build meaningful relationships.

[00:55:00] Heesoo Cho: I think the more you can nurture spaces for people to do that and explore what it means for them subjectively the better. And I think a alongside that, the challenging piece is that I think. We've all realized that maybe the certain standards and frameworks of capitalism aren't what they quite used to be and maybe don't really resonate with everybody, laterally in our system.

[00:55:27] Heesoo Cho: So how do we incorporate their desires and their wants? Also alongside, what we're currently doing today, how do we create space for people to have conversations around different ways of approaching building businesses building organizations contributing to things. And I think the more you containers of safety you can create, the more opportunities you can maybe be vulnerable with your team while still being accountable to each other.

[00:55:56] Heesoo Cho: I think the, that's the starting place for a leader. I think You don't ever stop growing as a leader. There's a duality that comes with leadership that you're always juggling too hard, too soft, too open, too private. All these types of kind of implications that you juggle day and day out.

[00:56:14] Heesoo Cho: You never really quite master. But I think it's the pursuit of that mastery that also helps helps you formulate the leader that you want to be in the circumstances, in the certain circumstances that you face pending the project, right? I think what I thought a leader used to be, playing rugby, completely different than what I'm doing now when I was a leader in hospitality.

[00:56:35] Heesoo Cho: Also different, right? So I think it's just about. Figuring out the, your personal purpose figuring out the team's kind of internal purpose as an organization, and then looking at opportunities for growth there and nurturing that growth. 

[00:56:50] Raad Seraj: Very well said. And I certainly wanna say that in the time that I know you, I've always seen you as a very grounded and self-aware individual.

[00:56:58] Raad Seraj: And I think when you have leaders like that who are building businesses, particularly in this point of time, it does infuse the business with the same values. I think the ability to be self-aware, to course correct, to understand fundamentals is really important. All to say congratulations on all your success and progress so far.

[00:57:18] Raad Seraj: Work doesn't end whether in the outer world or the inner world, but it is definitely a worthy pursuit. So Heesoo, thanks so much for being here. 

[00:57:26] Heesoo Cho: Thank you so much. It was a pleasure. 

[00:57:29] This podcast was brought to life with the help of Carolyn Tripp on art and design. Thanks so much for listening to Minority Trip Report. If you're learning from or enjoying the podcast, please subscribe to MTR on YouTube at Minority Trip Report and follow us on Instagram at Minority Trip. It's a zero cost way to support us and help us spread the word.

[00:57:46] Please also sign up with your email for new episode announcements, events, as well as our forthcoming newsletter. I'm your host, Raad Seraj. See you next time.